dont_do_it_doug. Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I know you did, TV, but they were still his choice, and he cannot be absolved of the responsibility for that.. No absolve him from blame for their appointment is very different to blaming him for not seeing the problem earlier which is what you were previously saying. Yes Lambert appointed them based upon their performance for him previously, that their performance/attitude changed can't really be leveled as a criticism of him in my view as quite clearly he would have appointed them had it been a problem before. I think you are agreeing that Lambert has to take the blame for hiring them, and therefore responsibility for their subsequent shortcomings. But I still think he failed to see the problems earlier, as I cannot believe he would have been prevented from dealing with that situation. I'm not saying he doesn't "take blame" for hiring them, they were his candidates for the positions obviously, although I'm sure he wouldn't of had them hired if he knew what would happen. Of course, he isn't psychic, shockingly enough. I have no idea when he would have realised or saw the problems occurring, but to suggest he could and should have simply "told them to go home" or "sacked them" is a bit silly, because he really isn't in such a position of power to do so. So what you're suggesting is that he went to Lerner, told him that these guys were doing a bad job, rumoured to be bullying players and that the club was suffering on the pitch as a result and Lerner told him "tough shit, where's your evidence jack, you're stuck with them..."? Sorry, not swallowing it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samjp26 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) I know you did, TV, but they were still his choice, and he cannot be absolved of the responsibility for that.. No absolve him from blame for their appointment is very different to blaming him for not seeing the problem earlier which is what you were previously saying. Yes Lambert appointed them based upon their performance for him previously, that their performance/attitude changed can't really be leveled as a criticism of him in my view as quite clearly he would have appointed them had it been a problem before. I think you are agreeing that Lambert has to take the blame for hiring them, and therefore responsibility for their subsequent shortcomings. But I still think he failed to see the problems earlier, as I cannot believe he would have been prevented from dealing with that situation. I'm not saying he doesn't "take blame" for hiring them, they were his candidates for the positions obviously, although I'm sure he wouldn't of had them hired if he knew what would happen. Of course, he isn't psychic, shockingly enough. I have no idea when he would have realised or saw the problems occurring, but to suggest he could and should have simply "told them to go home" or "sacked them" is a bit silly, because he really isn't in such a position of power to do so. So what you're suggesting is that he went to Lerner, told him that these guys were doing a bad job, rumoured to be bullying players and that the club was suffering on the pitch as a result and Lerner told him "tough shit, where's your evidence jack, you're stuck with them..."? Sorry, not swallowing it. Without any evidence there would be a case for wrongful dismissal, would there not? Even though Aston Villa is a football club, it is still a business, you can't just tear up people's contracts. Surely they'd have been a thorough investigation into the behaviour. I genuinely don't understand why people think Lambert could just kick two guys out of the club in an instant. Edited September 7, 2014 by samjp26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I know you did, TV, but they were still his choice, and he cannot be absolved of the responsibility for that.. No absolve him from blame for their appointment is very different to blaming him for not seeing the problem earlier which is what you were previously saying. Yes Lambert appointed them based upon their performance for him previously, that their performance/attitude changed can't really be leveled as a criticism of him in my view as quite clearly he would have appointed them had it been a problem before. I think you are agreeing that Lambert has to take the blame for hiring them, and therefore responsibility for their subsequent shortcomings. But I still think he failed to see the problems earlier, as I cannot believe he would have been prevented from dealing with that situation. I'm not saying he doesn't "take blame" for hiring them, they were his candidates for the positions obviously, although I'm sure he wouldn't of had them hired if he knew what would happen. Of course, he isn't psychic, shockingly enough. I have no idea when he would have realised or saw the problems occurring, but to suggest he could and should have simply "told them to go home" or "sacked them" is a bit silly, because he really isn't in such a position of power to do so. So what you're suggesting is that he went to Lerner, told him that these guys were doing a bad job, rumoured to be bullying players and that the club was suffering on the pitch as a result and Lerner told him "tough shit, where's your evidence jack, you're stuck with them..."? Sorry, not swallowing it. Firing someone for something without proof is a lawsuit waiting to happen, suspending them without proof is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Unfortunately, that's the world we live in. Likely someone was going through their contracts with a fine tooth comb before it was decided we could take action. The manager certainly couldn't make that call 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post il_serpente Posted September 8, 2014 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted September 8, 2014 Oh good! I was afraid I'd missed out on the chance to argue about the Culverhouse and Karsa situtation and might actually have to post something related to Roy Keane on this thread. What a relief. Culverhouse out! Karsa out! 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntrimBlack Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Oh good! I was afraid I'd missed out on the chance to argue about the Culverhouse and Karsa situtation and might actually have to post something related to Roy Keane on this thread. What a relief. Culverhouse out! Karsa out! I agree. (Time to move on - good little debate though, reasoned and free from abuse) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Oh good! I was afraid I'd missed out on the chance to argue about the Culverhouse and Karsa situtation and might actually have to post something related to Roy Keane on this thread. What a relief. Culverhouse out! Karsa out! It just kinda developed this way. Apologies for any offence caused. If you have any Roy Keane related news to share, "craic" on 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 I was a bit apprehensive about his appointment but certainly the inital stages look positive, long may that continue 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Keanes biggest problems as a manager arose when his teams started losing. Don't know if it was the way he spoke to them/his attitude towards them or what but this is where the problems lay. As assistant, he is not under the pressure to succeed that Lambert (or any manager) is-It will not be in his remit to growl at the players as much, which will hopefully be a good thing for the team. always thought one of his big problems was he was only starting as a manager and maybe he needed an experienced head at the time to give him a hand when the going got tough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Keane for me is better suited as assistant than a manager 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 I know you did, TV, but they were still his choice, and he cannot be absolved of the responsibility for that.. No absolve him from blame for their appointment is very different to blaming him for not seeing the problem earlier which is what you were previously saying. Yes Lambert appointed them based upon their performance for him previously, that their performance/attitude changed can't really be leveled as a criticism of him in my view as quite clearly he would have appointed them had it been a problem before. I think you are agreeing that Lambert has to take the blame for hiring them, and therefore responsibility for their subsequent shortcomings. But I still think he failed to see the problems earlier, as I cannot believe he would have been prevented from dealing with that situation. I'm not saying he doesn't "take blame" for hiring them, they were his candidates for the positions obviously, although I'm sure he wouldn't of had them hired if he knew what would happen. Of course, he isn't psychic, shockingly enough. I have no idea when he would have realised or saw the problems occurring, but to suggest he could and should have simply "told them to go home" or "sacked them" is a bit silly, because he really isn't in such a position of power to do so. So what you're suggesting is that he went to Lerner, told him that these guys were doing a bad job, rumoured to be bullying players and that the club was suffering on the pitch as a result and Lerner told him "tough shit, where's your evidence jack, you're stuck with them..."? Sorry, not swallowing it. Without any evidence there would be a case for wrongful dismissal, would there not? Even though Aston Villa is a football club, it is still a business, you can't just tear up people's contracts. Surely they'd have been a thorough investigation into the behaviour. I genuinely don't understand why people think Lambert could just kick two guys out of the club in an instant. Because it's all Lamberts fault Forger about employment law, civil and human rights etc etc, it's Lamberts fault. In an age where a rapist can sue the government for breach of human rights as to not being allowed to play the national lottery i find it strange that anyone is querying why you can't just kick someone out of a job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 (edited) Oh good! I was afraid I'd missed out on the chance to argue about the Culverhouse and Karsa situtation and might actually have to post something related to Roy Keane on this thread. What a relief. Culverhouse out! Karsa out! Round and round we go. The lack of clarity around what happened with them last season will mean it continues until the club speak up. edit...They probably won't ever, so buckle in Edited September 9, 2014 by Tomaszk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folski Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Will say one thing Roy had some comments during Euro 2012 which were turned by the irish media as if Keane was saying the Irish fans weren't great for singing when their team were getting hammered, but the point (I believe anyway) he was trying to make was that the Irish fans should have more to sing about than just celebrate making it to a tournament. I was therefore delighted he was given a role with RoI even if it was with Mo'N, but I was so disappointed to see a team which you would imagine he had some input into the selection of, go out and play a 4-5-1 away to Georgia. I was really hoping Roy would be telling them to go out there and beat them off the field 3-0 handy, I assume a lot of this is O'Neill but I hope we don't see any of that at the Villa. I can understand doing it away to the top top teams but I'd hate to see us try & play not to lose against a middle of the road side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villastine Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Will say one thing Roy had some comments during Euro 2012 which were turned by the irish media as if Keane was saying the Irish fans weren't great for singing when their team were getting hammered, but the point (I believe anyway) he was trying to make was that the Irish fans should have more to sing about than just celebrate making it to a tournament. I was therefore delighted he was given a role with RoI even if it was with Mo'N, but I was so disappointed to see a team which you would imagine he had some input into the selection of, go out and play a 4-5-1 away to Georgia. I was really hoping Roy would be telling them to go out there and beat them off the field 3-0 handy, I assume a lot of this is O'Neill but I hope we don't see any of that at the Villa. I can understand doing it away to the top top teams but I'd hate to see us try & play not to lose against a middle of the road side. Didn't Ireland win 2-1?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted September 9, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted September 9, 2014 I was a bit apprehensive about his appointment but certainly the inital stages look positive, long may that continue I feel very much the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 (edited) I know you did, TV, but they were still his choice, and he cannot be absolved of the responsibility for that.. No absolve him from blame for their appointment is very different to blaming him for not seeing the problem earlier which is what you were previously saying. Yes Lambert appointed them based upon their performance for him previously, that their performance/attitude changed can't really be leveled as a criticism of him in my view as quite clearly he would have appointed them had it been a problem before. I think you are agreeing that Lambert has to take the blame for hiring them, and therefore responsibility for their subsequent shortcomings. But I still think he failed to see the problems earlier, as I cannot believe he would have been prevented from dealing with that situation. I'm not saying he doesn't "take blame" for hiring them, they were his candidates for the positions obviously, although I'm sure he wouldn't of had them hired if he knew what would happen. Of course, he isn't psychic, shockingly enough. I have no idea when he would have realised or saw the problems occurring, but to suggest he could and should have simply "told them to go home" or "sacked them" is a bit silly, because he really isn't in such a position of power to do so. So what you're suggesting is that he went to Lerner, told him that these guys were doing a bad job, rumoured to be bullying players and that the club was suffering on the pitch as a result and Lerner told him "tough shit, where's your evidence jack, you're stuck with them..."? Sorry, not swallowing it. Without any evidence there would be a case for wrongful dismissal, would there not? Even though Aston Villa is a football club, it is still a business, you can't just tear up people's contracts. Surely they'd have been a thorough investigation into the behaviour. I genuinely don't understand why people think Lambert could just kick two guys out of the club in an instant. Because it's all Lamberts fault Forger about employment law, civil and human rights etc etc, it's Lamberts fault. In an age where a rapist can sue the government for breach of human rights as to not being allowed to play the national lottery i find it strange that anyone is querying why you can't just kick someone out of a job It's really odd that you have chosen to put me of all posters into that box. I'm generally reasonably supportive of the manager no? Or are you just shooting in the dark there hoping to hit something? Edited September 9, 2014 by dont_do_it_doug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Will say one thing Roy had some comments during Euro 2012 which were turned by the irish media as if Keane was saying the Irish fans weren't great for singing when their team were getting hammered, but the point (I believe anyway) he was trying to make was that the Irish fans should have more to sing about than just celebrate making it to a tournament. I was therefore delighted he was given a role with RoI even if it was with Mo'N, but I was so disappointed to see a team which you would imagine he had some input into the selection of, go out and play a 4-5-1 away to Georgia. I was really hoping Roy would be telling them to go out there and beat them off the field 3-0 handy, I assume a lot of this is O'Neill but I hope we don't see any of that at the Villa. I can understand doing it away to the top top teams but I'd hate to see us try & play not to lose against a middle of the road side. Didn't Ireland win 2-1?? Yeah but we robbed them. We'd had bugger all chances or attacking threat, and the last kick of the game won it for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I heard Keane didnt even travel out to Georgia. Didnt see him on the touchline during the game and word removed MON was talking to somebody else during the game when making tactical changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ads Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I heard Keane didnt even travel out to Georgia. Didnt see him on the touchline during the game and word removed MON was talking to somebody else during the game when making tactical changes Tactics such as to bring the Irish Heskey on at 70 minutes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Folski Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Will say one thing Roy had some comments during Euro 2012 which were turned by the irish media as if Keane was saying the Irish fans weren't great for singing when their team were getting hammered, but the point (I believe anyway) he was trying to make was that the Irish fans should have more to sing about than just celebrate making it to a tournament. I was therefore delighted he was given a role with RoI even if it was with Mo'N, but I was so disappointed to see a team which you would imagine he had some input into the selection of, go out and play a 4-5-1 away to Georgia. I was really hoping Roy would be telling them to go out there and beat them off the field 3-0 handy, I assume a lot of this is O'Neill but I hope we don't see any of that at the Villa. I can understand doing it away to the top top teams but I'd hate to see us try & play not to lose against a middle of the road side. Didn't Ireland win 2-1?? They did but needed a bit of magic for McGeady in the last minute. Performance was woeful. I heard Keane didnt even travel out to Georgia. Didnt see him on the touchline during the game and word removed MON was talking to somebody else during the game when making tactical changes That's good news if true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 no Jonathan Walters started the game was actually waiting for him to move Coleman to left back and move Whelan to right back like he used to do with Young and Reo-COker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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