StefanAVFC Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 They should have had 3 reds. Maguire should have gone too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 10 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Yes he is What else is he trying to do? Kick the ball so hard that it goes through Jones? He knows he can't win that ball Its a frustrated petulant kick out that he got away with And doesn't endanger him? You think that if Jones did that to Fernandes the reaction and result would be the same? Absolutely not a chance Honestly? I think it's a frustrated kick out at the ball. I don't think he's thinking about kicking the player at all, but he also doesn't care that he's lying there. He doesn't touch the player at all so of course it doesn't endanger him. Jones is pissed off so he jumps up. The last bit is classic whataboutism garbage. Where's your proof for it not being treated the same? There's none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 1 minute ago, bobzy said: Honestly? I think it's a frustrated kick out at the ball. I don't think he's thinking about kicking the player at all, but he also doesn't care that he's lying there. He doesn't touch the player at all so of course it doesn't endanger him. Jones is pissed off so he jumps up. The last bit is classic whataboutism garbage. Where's your proof for it not being treated the same? There's none. We all know what the reaction of Fernandes, Ronaldo, kane, grealish etc is to that, that's not whataboutism And what happens if someone does that to a utd player at OT I completely disagree, it's a flash of football intelligence even in the moment of rage, he's booted the ball but he knows he's gone for the man, that ball can't go anywhere other than Jones stomach, knows exactly what he's doing, he's not going to boot the man but he knows he'll still feel it and of course it can still endanger him, you think the force of that kick doesn't transfer? Its a case of kicked the ball so it's not a foul bullshit, didn't win the ball did he? Not even close because he can't win that ball in that fashion 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 33 minutes ago, bobzy said: Yeah, he's angry and frustrated but he's not trying to hurt his opponent for **** sake If he wants to do that, the opportunity is quite literally there for him. He's just being a dick. It doesn't endanger Jones in any way - he's up straight away pointing out how much of a dick Ronaldo is. It's a yellow, he got a yellow. IMO, the ball gives him the plausible deniability to rough his opponent up a bit without it just being a blatant assault. We may as well agree to disagree though, we're not going to come to a concrete resolution here, nobody apart from Ronaldo knows what was going throw his mind, and I'll accept my judgement is coloured by the fact that I think he's generally a nasty peice of work. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 1 minute ago, villa4europe said: We all know what the reaction of Fernandes, Ronaldo, kane, grealish etc is to that, that's not whataboutism And what happens if someone does that to a utd player at OT I completely disagree, it's a flash of football intelligence even in the moment of rage, he's booted the ball but he knows he's gone for the man, that ball can't go anywhere other than Jones stomach, knows exactly what he's doing, he's not going to boot the man but he knows he'll still feel it and of course it can still endanger him, you think the force of that kick doesn't transfer? Its a case of kicked the ball so it's not a foul bullshit, didn't win the ball did he? Not even close because he can't win that ball in that fashion It is whataboutism. The likelihood is that Fernandes may roll around on the floor, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the referee would brandish a red card. Literally nothing. It's this situation that people have in their head "OMG at Old Trafford nothing will happen to the home side". Pogba was shown a yellow which was overturned and given a red for it. Man Utd received 7 cards for 10 fouls versus Liverpool's 0 cards for 8 fouls. There was an incident in the first half where Rashford was breaking through on goal and Henderson pulled him back - absolutely standard yellow card stuff, nothing given at all. But it was at Old Trafford so what the **** was the referee doing? On the general incident, it's like those challenges where players go in firmly enough so that they know the will catch their man - "leave one on him" - but win the ball in the process. Red cards are never going to be dished out for it. It's being a dick for the sake of being a dick (although FWIW I'd argue that those challenges are worse than what Ronaldo did). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, bobzy said: Pogba was shown a yellow which was overturned and given a red for it. thats a bad example! one of the easiest red cards the ref could ever haven given and yet he still needed VAR to give it 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stevo985 Posted October 25, 2021 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted October 25, 2021 Ronaldo's should have been a red. I don't know the reason for not giving it, if it was because it was Ronaldo or Man Utd or what. But it's a red card 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted October 25, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted October 25, 2021 Of course Jones was in danger of being hurt. If the ball bobbled away he would’ve been kicked hard in the stomach. It would’ve looked more like a drunken assault outside Wetherspoons in Piccadilly Gardens than something on a football pitch. Maguire, once that’s given as a foul it has to be a red. Again, the most clear cut example of denying a goal scoring opportunity you could imagine. I’d argue Pogba’s was the least clear cut red card. And it was a red card, but it was a bad tackle at speed, not that far off the ground. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 58 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Yes he is What else is he trying to do? Kick the ball so hard that it goes through Jones? He knows he can't win that ball Its a frustrated petulant kick out that he got away with And doesn't endanger him? You think that if Jones did that to Fernandes the reaction and result would be the same? Absolutely not a chance He didn’t get away with it as he gave away a foul and received a yellow card. I think it would be hard to make a red card stick in that scenario. The ball is there and he whacks it, a foul and a yellow seems reasonable to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 25, 2021 Moderator Share Posted October 25, 2021 For me, the Ronaldo one was a red, the Maguire one was a red and the Pogba one was a red. I thought they got lucky. In terms of their overall problems, I think it's pretty straightforward. It was interesting to read on the BBC feed and on twitter that lots of their fans wanted to thank Ole for getting them a great squad, but feel he's not the manager to take them forward - for me they're missing the point, this isn't a great squad, this is four nice desserts and a piece of bread. They've got loads of good keepers - De Gea, Henderson, Heaton - no problems there. On paper a back four of Wan-Bissacka, Varane, Maguire and Shaw isn't bad - there's a bit of depth with Dalot, Lindelof, Bailly and Telles - it's not as good as Citeh or Chelsea, but it could be worse I guess. In midfield, and to be clear, I'm talking about actual midfield, your sixes and eights here, they have three players. At a push you could include Pogba but he does no work. They have Fred, McTominay, and Matic. Now there's a big debate to be had about the quality of those three, but even if you think they're good enough - the idea that a club this size has only three is bordering on laughable - we've got Mcginn, Luiz, Ramsey, Nakamba and Sanson and we were very keen to bring in Ward-Prowse - it's an area we think of as needing some help and we've got five. In attacking positions, they've got an embarrassment of riches - Rashford, Ronaldo, Greenwood, Sancho, Fernandes, Pogba, Cavani, Martial, Diallo, Lingard, Van De Beek and Mata - that's a dozen - twelve players for the front line as compared to three for the middle line. Now I'm going to assume that United fans are all glory hunting morons and believe that having lots and lots of star strikers is a good squad, but it's not - there's no balance, there's no depth outside of the front line and the temptation to play as many superstars as they can at once is killing them. As Paul Scholes has pointed out lately - what they've been playing is 4-2-4 and against Liverpool that's stupid (at least I think that's what he said, he had his mouth full at the time) he's right though - that's their problem - it's one that's a little bit familiar to Villa fans as we suffer the same temptation to try to force Bailey, Buendia, Ings and Watkins into the same eleven. United should be playing either a 4-3-3 or a 4-3-1-2 to suit their personnel. For example, they could go: -----------------------------De Gea----------------------------- Wan Bissaka---Varane----Maguire---------Shaw -------------------------------Matic----------------------------- -----------------McTominay----Fred---------------------- Greenwood-------------------------------------Rashford -----------------------------Ronaldo---------------------------- Or: -----------------------------De Gea----------------------------- Wan Bissaka---Varane----Maguire---------Shaw ----------McTominay--Matic---Fred------------------- ---------------------------Fernandes------------------------- --------------Cavani----------------Ronaldo-------------- But the important thing is balance - what they're trying to do is play a 4-2-3-1 without enough grafters to make it work and ending up surrendering midfield and left people get at their back four. It's pretty fixable in fairness, they could let Pogba, Cavani, Lingard, Van De Beek and Mata go and use the million pound odd a week that frees up in wages and the cash it brings in, and their known spending power to go out and get a midfield instead of a load of talented forwards that have to sit on the bench - buy Phillips from Leeds and McKennie from Juventus and you've got a squad with a lot more balance - it'd still be weakest in midfield, but it'd be a start. It's strange how United fans see what they have as a fantastic squad - the challenge for a new manager will be both to improve the mess he takes over, and educate them on the difference between a good squad and having £40m attacking players that don't make the bench. Hopefully that proves really, really difficult - you get what you deserve. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stevo985 Posted October 25, 2021 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted October 25, 2021 Jones doesn't have to be in danger of getting hurt for it to be a red card. If you push someone in the face then they're not going to get hurt but you'll be sent off. It's violent conduct. The fact he only kicked the ball is irrelevant. It's clearly a petulant kick out. He should have walked 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 what was utd's response to this again? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 44 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: Maguire---------Shaw Both looked like League 1 players yesterday, it was brilliant. I was expecting them to accidently tie their boots together at one point in a double knot communication failure. What bargains 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said: twelve players for the front line as compared to three for the middle line. They have 7 attackers/forwards and 7 midfielders don’t they? Midfield: Matic, Pogba, Lingard, Fred, Bruno, van der Beek, McTominay. Forwards: Ronaldo, Mata, Cavani, Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood and Martial. Really they only have Cavani and Ronaldo as number 9 type “proper” strikers. They have an abundance / over stock of attacking midfield / winger type players A better split (going all Fifa) is CM: Van Der Beek, Pogba, McTominay, Fred, Matic CAM: Bruno, JLingz, Mata CF: Ronaldo, Cavani, Wing/ Wide forward: Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Greenwood. Doesnt look too imbalanced to me. Several of those players can drop into other roles too. Edited October 25, 2021 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 Interesting what their team will be for next match. He might aswell give likes of Lingard and Van De Beek a go just for a laugh in the midfield given the other useless options and Pogba out for three matches. I actually think in present set up front 2 of Cavani and Ronaldo would work better as Cavani can do the pressing and allow Ronaldo a free role to drift around but then you barely play with any width in final third and that's a problem for them with what they've spent on Sancho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Phil Silvers Posted October 25, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 25, 2021 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, VillaChris said: Interesting what their team will be for next match. They are not doing the simple things correctly at the moment either as a team or individually. I think he has lost them (OGS) as a group totally. Just a matter of time now and damage limitation short term till Jan. (Whoever comes in will try and ship / loan some of these out IMO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 25, 2021 Moderator Share Posted October 25, 2021 40 minutes ago, Genie said: A better split (going all Fifa) is CM: Van Der Beek, Pogba, McTominay, Fred, Matic CAM: Bruno, JLingz, Mata CF: Ronaldo, Cavani, Wing/ Wide forward: Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Greenwood. I'd put Van de Beek in that CAM group and Lingard in the wide forward group, I'd say it's arguably Pogba's best position too - as a 'proper' centre mid, he's a little lazy. If you look at the Liverpool team, they played Firmino in the position where Fernandes played for United. If Liverpool had played the same shape as Utd they'd have gone: ------------------Henderson-----Keita------------------- Salah--------------------Firmino--------------------Jota ------------------------------Mane----------------------------- It's too unbalanced. They started a centre midfield of Henderson, Milner and Keita - not their first choice with Thiago and Fabinho missing, but still decent enough and with Curtis Jones on the bench. If we include Pogba, that's still two more people than United have that can do the job - and Liverpool used all of them. It just strikes me as a really unbalanced squad - they didn't need Ronaldo this summer, or Sancho, and they could have let Lingard and Van de Beek go - they've added the biggest name forwards they can in an effort to please the fanbase and haven't put any thought into the team at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 I think they have quality options all over the pitch, they also have flexibility with those quality players able to cover more than 1 position. With that in mind the capitulation yesterday has to be laid at Ole’s door. Liverpool are a very well drilled, organised and quality team and losing to them is no shame. It’s the manner of the loss that is the issue, they were an absolute mess and on paper the United squad is good enough to give them a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: Jones doesn't have to be in danger of getting hurt for it to be a red card. If you push someone in the face then they're not going to get hurt but you'll be sent off. It's violent conduct. The fact he only kicked the ball is irrelevant. It's clearly a petulant kick out. He should have walked Hadn't the whistle already been blown for his petulant foul as well? There's not really any justification for booting the ball against a player twice after the whistle has gone. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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