villakram Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 14 hours ago, TheAuthority said: I think it's because African American's are not in the US by choice. Their ancestors were bought here against their will as slaves. Part of the slow reckoning of that truth started with using the term "African American" to make that distinction (I think sometime in the 80's.) No White or Caucasian's were shipped to America as slaves. So even if it doesn't "read well" I think it shows respect to the thought process behind the term to capitalize the title. I agree. The police are also yet to release any body-am footage which usually means it's pretty damning. Unless they 'malfunctioned' of course... That's not strictly true. The first colonial settlers brought the local indentured class with them, and all the great european migrations have tales of horrid conditions and similar indenture in one form or another. I am unfamiliar with the early asian/latino migrations but I'm sure people treated each other like shit there too. This is no way invalidates what occurred elsewhere and the obvious longer term structural issues present to this day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MessiWillSignForVilla Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 1 hour ago, villakram said: That's not strictly true. The first colonial settlers brought the local indentured class with them, and all the great european migrations have tales of horrid conditions and similar indenture in one form or another. I am unfamiliar with the early asian/latino migrations but I'm sure people treated each other like shit there too. This is no way invalidates what occurred elsewhere and the obvious longer term structural issues present to this day. Signing a contract to agree to work on someones land in exchange for them paying for your trip is in no way comparable to slavery. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancvillan Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 1 hour ago, villakram said: Define the problem first. Neo-liberalism. Biden is a neo-liberal exemplar. The democratic and republican parties ascribe to this economic orthodoxy. You and others believe that voting out Trump would solve the problem. It may well solve a problem that you have or perceive, but it does not solve the important/defining problem of our time or even attempt to. We will be in 2024 at the end of this incoming presidency. Sixteen years after the 2008 financial disaster than undermined the fundamental tenets of the neo-liberal economic model. Yet no effort of reform will have occurred. Factually, the neo-liberal model has been doubled down on by the entire political establishment, the inequality walking around us being the defining characteristic of this obscene nonsense. So you defined your version of the problem, but that does not discount the fact that Biden would be better in terms of wealth redistribution - just nothing like to the level you would like. So again, what are you going to do with the hand you've been dealt? I genuinely ask because I don't disagree with you ono a lot of things - I just don't see you suggesting any viable way to move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancvillan Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 6 hours ago, snowychap said: Excellent post but I would just disagree slightly with the idea that this was 'of a time'. It may have been a particular response to a specific event but it isn't and wasn't 'of a time' - aren't pretty much all of the provisions (with a few exceptions) still law having been extended over time beyond the original sunset clauses under Bush Jr and then Obama and now Trump (and likely under whoever is the next Pres)? It is part of a progression of changes in law and order/response to 'terrorism' that has occurred over in the US and the UK and is still occurring. It was criticised at the time (maybe not properly and enough in legislatures or in the most popular and populist forums) and not just three years after the event in a Michael Moore film. Your knowledge of the intricacies and nuances of the Act itself is obviously greater than mine so I'll accept fully that there are probablly worthy and useful provisions within it but the point is the tone of the legislation, its part in a widening of state power, how it (along with legislation elsewhere in the west) has given ready-made excuses to other nations like Russia, China, Syria, &c., and the fact that it's proved to be a legislative base rather than an extreme from which the US has pulled back in the years after. I agree with you that it's not particularly a stick with which to beat Biden (over and above beating anyone else who was a politician at the time or even a public figure who may have supported it) though the circumstances in which it was brought in and has since been extended could be rightly viewed as a reason to highlight a doubt in support of Biden as President (much like it was and should have been acceptable to point out the flaws in Obama and the public's reading of his campaigns without that being viewed as saying that he was the wrong pick). That's a very fair point - I'm definitely no expert but as I understand it a lot of the Act was taken from past bills that had been proposed (I think one specifically authored by Biden), so it wasn't like some of these ideas were new. Also you're right about the lack of much sunsetting - it's a poor excuse but it's tough to get the genie back in the bottle I guess. Obama couldn't (or didn't) shut down Gitmo despite all the promises to do so once elected. I think you would need someone with both the will and the mandate to orchestrate the closure of some of the larger programs - and the Democratic party currently has neither. I guess what I meant was that 9/11 gave "permission" (for want of a better word) for some legislators to push for some of the more draconian measures - it's an over-used phrase but it represented a dramatic shift in the Overton Window that happened during the course of basically one morning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 40 minutes ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said: Signing a contract to agree to work on someones land in exchange for them paying for your trip is in no way comparable to slavery. It is nowhere close to as simple as that. And acknowledging the complicated history of this country in no way intended to minimize the suffering of any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted October 29, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted October 29, 2020 4 hours ago, villakram said: That's not strictly true. The first colonial settlers brought the local indentured class with them, and all the great european migrations have tales of horrid conditions and similar indenture in one form or another. I am unfamiliar with the early asian/latino migrations but I'm sure people treated each other like shit there too. This is no way invalidates what occurred elsewhere and the obvious longer term structural issues present to this day. 2 hours ago, villakram said: It is nowhere close to as simple as that. And acknowledging the complicated history of this country in no way intended to minimize the suffering of any other. Indentured servants usually worked for 4 to 7 years in exchange for passage, room, board and freedom dues. While it was harsh and restrictive it wasn't slavery. There were laws that protected their rights. For those that survived and received their freedom many historians argued that they were better off than those new immigrants that came freely to the country. Their contract may have included at least 25 acres of land, a year's worth of corn, arms, a cow, and new clothes. Interestingly when the first black Africans arrived there were no slave laws and at first they were treated as indentured servants. Until slave laws were passed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted October 29, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted October 29, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, villakram said: Define the problem first. Neo-liberalism. Biden is a neo-liberal exemplar. The democratic and republican parties ascribe to this economic orthodoxy. You and others believe that voting out Trump would solve the problem. It may well solve a problem that you have or perceive, but it does not solve the important/defining problem of our time or even attempt to. We will be in 2024 at the end of this incoming presidency. Sixteen years after the 2008 financial disaster than undermined the fundamental tenets of the neo-liberal economic model. Yet no effort of reform will have occurred. Factually, the neo-liberal model has been doubled down on by the entire political establishment, the inequality walking around us being the defining characteristic of this obscene nonsense. I think more people are worried about black people being murdered, America plunging into Civil War, millions dying of coronavirus, an out of control man being "leader" of the free world, trade wars across the globe, Russia controlling America and increased potential for World War 3 than any kind of economic policy right now. Why can't you see that Trump is the most dangerous man in the world right now. Anything , literally ANYTHING which isn't Trump right now is better for America and better for the whole world. If Biden was twice as unsuitable as he is now he would still be a better option. Your persistent defence of Trump leaves me speechless. It's like watching the rise of Hitler. I genuinely mean that, he is that poisonous. Edited October 29, 2020 by sidcow 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 16 minutes ago, sidcow said: I think more people are worried about black people being murdered, America plunging into Civil War, millions dying of coronavirus, an out of control man being "leader" of the free world, trade wars across the globe, Russia controlling America and increased potential for World War 3 than any kind of economic policy right now. Why can't you see that Trump is the most dangerous man in the world right now. Anything , literally ANYTHING which isn't Trump right now is better for America and better for the whole world. If Biden was twice as unsuitable as he is now he would still be a better option. Your persistent defence of Trump leaves me speechless. It's like watching the rise of Hitler. I genuinely mean that, he is that poisonous. Evidence dear chap, evidence. The largest societal problems in American today are due to policies originating from intimate input from Biden again and again. Anything of substance done by Trump has had congressional backing, and not much of it originated from him. WWIII/Russia and other such armageddon talk deserves the raised eyebrows it gets. "most dangerous man/watching the rise of Hitler", jeez, that's the kind of "talk" that was coming out of right wing land when Obama was in charge and look where that has gotten us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 As we saw during the primary process, powerful forces are in control of the "Democratic" party. The "offending" article criticized Biden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted October 29, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted October 29, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, villakram said: WWIII/Russia and other such armageddon talk deserves the raised eyebrows it gets. "most dangerous man/watching the rise of Hitler", jeez, that's the kind of "talk" that was coming out of right wing land when Obama was in charge and look where that has gotten us. You see this is why he is so dangerous. If you can honestly sit there and continually defend him then either you really do want to live in that kind of bullying poisonous society and are pretending you don't see what's going on because you want that kind of world to come about......or you genuinely don't see what is unfurling before your eye's. I suspect with alot of Americans it's the latter because there aren't that many truly nefarious people in the world. Trump should have zero chance of getting back in. It should be the most one sided election in history with the way he conducts himself. America is one **** up country that's he's even in with a shout. I know people think we were barmy to vote in Boris but he's not even traipsing on the foothills of Trump's insanity mountain. A Trump like character wouldn't stand a chance here. Boris only got in because there was Zero opposition. I've voted Tory all my life but I couldn't vote for Boris. If an exact Trump copy was up for prime minister here I am sure even Corbyn would have triumphed. Edited October 29, 2020 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 42 minutes ago, sidcow said: You see this is why he is so dangerous. If you can honestly sit there and continually defend him then either you really do want to live in that kind of bullying poisonous society and are pretending you don't see what's going on because you want that kind of world to come about......or you genuinely don't see what is unfurling before your eye's. I suspect with alot of Americans it's the latter because there aren't that many truly nefarious people in the world. Trump should have zero chance of getting back in. It should be the most one sided election in history with the way he conducts himself. America is one **** up country that's he's even in with a shout. I know people think we were barmy to vote in Boris but he's not even traipsing on the foothills of Trump's insanity mountain. A Trump like character wouldn't stand a chance here. Boris only got in because there was Zero opposition. I've voted Tory all my life but I couldn't vote for Boris. If an exact Trump copy was up for prime minister here I am sure even Corbyn would have triumphed. Therefore you are part of the neo-liberal supporting order. Trickle down and wage arbitrage (aka globalization) must have treated you ok. Interesting how you claim I am blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancvillan Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 17 hours ago, villakram said: Therefore you are part of the neo-liberal supporting order. Trickle down and wage arbitrage (aka globalization) must have treated you ok. Interesting how you claim I am blind. I'll ask for third time and see if you dodge again - what are you going to do with the hand you're playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 30, 2020 Moderator Share Posted October 30, 2020 24 minutes ago, Vancvillan said: I'll ask for third time and see if you dodge again - what are you going to do with the hand you're playing? He doesn't have a vote, he's not a citizen. He did post this a while back 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 hours ago, Vancvillan said: I'll ask for third time and see if you dodge again - what are you going to do with the hand you're playing? I have stated what the options are. They are numerous and many more than the simple duopoly that the Biden campaign/DNC would have you believe. Those congressional critters deserve particular attention for example. Me, well I'm just paying my taxes and enjoying a warm cuppa. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mjmooney Posted October 30, 2020 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted October 30, 2020 23 hours ago, sidcow said: I've voted Tory all my life 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted November 1, 2020 Moderator Share Posted November 1, 2020 Quote Trump told us: Deploy alligators & snakes in the border “mote” to attack migrants. How much would it cost to maintain that? (24 of 25) From a thread of previously untold madness - https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1322574090885103618.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 In other news the US as of today formally left the Paris Agreement on climate change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 1 hour ago, sne said: In other news the US as of today formally left the Paris Agreement on climate change. Well there's Sleepy Joe's first potential easy win right there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post choffer Posted November 4, 2020 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted November 4, 2020 Could have gone in two or three different threads but I thought this was pretty powerful (and damning).... 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 I guess I'm officially a WH advisor. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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