U.S. Politics

[LondonLax]

38 minutes ago, sne said:

I just can never wrap my head around that issues like the right to carry a gun or that others should not be allowed to make an abortion can be issues that decide who you vote for.

Bonkers country.

It’s also a very big country. I kind of think it makes more sense when compared with the EU as a whole rather than one European country. For example Poland just introduced legislation banning abortion in almost all cases whilst Hungary have had some very nasty politics around immigration and authoritarianism. I guess in a way those countries are like our version of ‘The Midwest’ or ‘The South’ whilst people living in Scandinavia would probably feel pretty culturally at home somewhere like Washington State in the US. 

[sne]

1 minute ago, LondonLax said:

It’s also a very big country. I kind of think it makes more sense when compared with the EU as a whole rather than one European country. For example Poland just introduced legislation banning abortion in almost all cases whilst Hungary have had some very nasty politics around immigration and authoritarianism. I guess in a way those countries are like our version of ‘The Midwest’ or ‘The South’ whilst people living in Scandinavia would probably feel pretty culturally at home somewhere like Washington State in the US. 

Yeah it's a big country but it's been a country for a while now. The EU still has 120 million or so bigger population than the US of A and has never been a coherent entity (even under Rome)

As someone from Sweden there is no place in the US I would feel at home in. I like NYC but I would not wan't to live there for more than a couple weeks tops. Obviously I've not been all around the country but I feel comfortable in knowing this. It's the religion, the love of guns, the patriotism and a thousand other things that make it so.

[KenjiOgiwara]

40 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

It’s also a very big country. I kind of think it makes more sense when compared with the EU as a whole rather than one European country. For example Poland just introduced legislation banning abortion in almost all cases whilst Hungary have had some very nasty politics around immigration and authoritarianism. I guess in a way those countries are like our version of ‘The Midwest’ or ‘The South’ whilst people living in Scandinavia would probably feel pretty culturally at home somewhere like Washington State in the US. 

That's really the thing isn't it. From top to bottom it isn't a country, at least in the context most people think of. They might have the same flag but that's about it. 

[Vancvillan]

5 hours ago, villakram said:

Opposed bussing and lauded individuals that were straight up and down racists.

1994 crime act, read the new Jim Crowe for what this has done to society.

Glass Steagall,  a giveaway to the elite. You may have noticed this.

The patriot act - five eyes etc.

The Iraq War - How many died? 

Afghan/Libya/Syria - How many died?

Opioid epidemic - on Joe's watch.

Student loan are no longer dischargeable in bankruptcy.

ACA - where Biden ran point for the insurance industry in explicitly identifying the 20 million poorest Americans and excluding them from coverage.

 

What do you define as a callous individual?

All good points - let me address them in the context of my original post, which was that Biden is certainly not perfect, but still the better choice.

1. You put "compassionate individual" in bold so I'll address that first.  It's anecdotal from those who have worked with him over the years and from interviews he's done. I think the death of his son Beau was one of many tragedies in his life that have each shaped him in a way that he doesn't look to get to the top by any means necessary - something I would not say of Trump who has a clear cut record of shafting anyone at any opportunity for his own gain.  The story of Trump cutting off medical insurance to his nephew's family (who had a severely disabled infant son) during the contesting of Donald's father's will is especially horrendous.

2. Bussing - that was in the mid-70's and pressure from both R and D white voters meant a lot of politicians opposed bussing.  I could argue that the policy itself was deeply flawed and used kids as pawns in a game that looked to sweep the root cause of systemic racism (white people's fear) under the carpet, but I'd agree that Biden's actions were probably more pure politics in terms of bending to the will of the electorate.   White people did (and do) shitty things - he was one of them in the '70's.  As was Trump, who was being sued at that time by the Justice Department for racial discrimination.  Biden went on to co-sponsor the Voting Rights Act renewal, Trump went on to take out a full page in four NYC newspapers in an effort to bring back the death penalty for the Central Park 5, who were later exonerated.  His racism doesn't stop there, but I'm sure the Internet has a limit on how much I can type.

3. 1994 Crime Act - At the time, that bill wasn't controversial at all and had two thirds support of the congressional black caucus. It wasn't a pander to white voters - it was actually pretty indicative of the mood of the country, which was experiencing a tripling of crime between the 60's and the 90's and a crack cocaine epidemic.  Was it the right solution? No - it had a lot of shitty elements, but it also contained other things like the assault weapons ban that would be very popular today.  In fact it's Trump who now wants to be "tough on crime" and put protesters in jail for a decade if they smash a window.  Using the bill as a way to show Biden isn't perfect is a great idea - using it to suggest Trump is better is a mind-boggling arguement.

3. Glass Steagall - from the horse's mouth "“I’ll be blunt with you: the only vote I can think of that I’ve ever cast in my years in the Senate that I regret—and I did it out of loyalty, and I wasn’t aware that it was gonna be as bad as it was—was Glass-Steagall.”  He **** up, as most people will (regularly) during an almost 50 year career.  Today he wants to tax the rich and increase the power of labour unions. Trumps platform and his actions over the last four years have been to do the polar opposite.  And this highlights another point - Biden will admit when he's wrong. Not always, but a lot more than Trump who will never do anything other than blame someone else.

 4. The Patriot Act - everyone probably associates this with surveillance overreach, but that's a massive simplification. As with most things the truth is a lot more nuanced.  Before I get there I'll get a bit more personal on this one.

On the morning of September 11th 2001 I was in Miami. I left (by car) after the first plane hit, to head to DC to visit a friend (obviously we had no idea what was going on at that point). By the time we made it to DC all exits off the I-95 were shut, so we carried on and ended up staying with another friend in a small town in upstate NY.  A few days later I was on an Amtrak to NYC to catch the second flight out of JFK to get back to London.  I remember looking out of the window and seeing the skyline (I'd been at the top of the twin towers 10 days before) and the smoke still billowing into the air.  I knew people who lived very close by. I knew people who lost relatives. 

I say this because I remember vividly what the mood of the nation was at that time.  It was something that had never been seen before on American soil, and I think it's unsurprising that the pendulum would swing too far in terms of the response.  It's easy for Michael Moore to make a documentary three years later to point out all the overreach, but I'd forgive some decision making that in hindsight looks poor given that legislators were to some degree designing a plane while flying it.  Only one senator (Russ Feingold) voted against it.  Maybe you think that Trump would have vetoed it?  Otherwise I don't get the point of bringing it up.

The bill also included a bunch of things like federal funds for victims of terrorism, as well as increased powers for federal agencies to track and seize money related to terrorist organizations, which I highly doubt that Trump is pushing back on. Again, I don't really see what your point is since the Patriot Act is so broad, and so of a specific time.

5. The Iraq war - I believe Biden called it "a march to peace" when pushing for the war.  He was influential in getting GWB the authority to go to war.  In hindsight most people would agree that at least the premise (WMDs) was false, and that the war was a bad idea. I don't agree with Biden's stance now. Did I think that way in 2003? I honestly can't remember.  Did Trump oppose the war at that time? No. He was writing about pre-emptive strikes on Iraq in 2000, before 9/11.  He would have made exactly the same decision.

6. Afghanistan, Libya, Siria - see above.

7. Opioid epidemic - I'd dispute that it was "on his watch", but either way Republicans did everything they could during the Obama years to regulate pharma in any meaningful way. If you're going to tell me that Trump would have introduced regulations to prevent opioid prescriptions and addiction, I think you're being disingenuous.

8. Student loans / bankruptcy - you have Biden bang to rights on this one, he voted (along with 17 other Dem senators) to pass a Republican-led bill to abolish certain bankruptcy protections around consumer debt in 2005. You could argue that he did so as credit companies had donated hundreds of thousands to his campaign. Shitty move.  He's since come up with a plan to tackle that issue, and while it's too little too late for a lot of people caught in the crosshairs of that bill, he is looking to right a wrong that Trump would not touch in a thousand terms. So yeah, he made another shitty decision - but of the two on the ballot, he's the only one looking to help correct that.

9. ACA - I honestly don't have any knowledge of your point there but I'd love to read more. Can you post something?  I personally think the ACA is deeply flawed and building on it vs having a more robust public option is a mistake, but the ACA was on a macro level a net positive.  It was a long way from perfect, but the intent to expand healthcare is something I'll always get behind. Trump's plan right now (after four years in power, two of which he had the house and senate) is "replace is with something better". There's no plan, no policy - just wind.  If I had to pick Biden or Trump to run healthcare reform for four years I'd trust the guy who has been through the process already with the ACA, has a detailed platform and who's intentions I trust a lot more than Trump.

tl;dr - Biden is deeply flawed (as we all are), but is on almost every level a better choice to be in public office. Biden has **** up many times, but I think Trump under the same circumstances would have been worse.

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Vancvillan
spelling

[sidcow]

4 hours ago, mjmooney said:

As I've said before, at least Biden is an actual politician. Now, I'm under no illusions about politicians. I assume they are all venal and corrupt to some degree or other. That unfortunately comes with the territory. 

As Billy Connolly says “The desire to be a politician should bar you for life from ever becoming one.”

[TheAuthority]

29 minutes ago, Vancvillan said:

All good points - let me address them in the context of my original post, which was that Biden is certainly not perfect, but still the better choice.

1. You put "compassionate individual" in bold so I'll address that first.  It's anecdotal from those who have worked with him over the years and from interviews he's done. I think the death of his son Beau was one of many tragedies in his life that have each shaped him in a way that he doesn't look to get to the top by any means necessary - something I would not say of Trump who has a clear cut record of shafting anyone at any opportunity for his own gain.  The story of Trump cutting off medical insurance to his nephew's family (who had a severely disabled infant son) during the contesting of Donald's father's will is especially horrendous.

2. Bussing - that was in the mid-70's and pressure from both R and D white voters meant a lot of politicians opposed bussing.  I could argue that the policy itself was deeply flawed and used kids as pawns in a game that looked to sweep the root cause of systemic racism (white people's fear) under the carpet, but I'd agree that Biden's actions were probably more pure politics in terms of bending to the will of the electorate.   White people did (and do) shitty things - he was one of them in the '70's.  As was Trump, who was being sued at that time by the Justice Department for racial discrimination.  Biden went on to co-sponsor the Voting Rights Act renewal, Trump went on to take out a full page in four NYC newspapers in an effort to bring back the death penalty for the Central Park 5, who were later exonerated.  His racism doesn't stop there, but I'm sure the Internet has a limit on how much I can type.

3. 1994 Crime Act - At the time, that bill wasn't controversial at all and had two thirds support of the congressional black caucus. It wasn't a pander to white voters - it was actually pretty indicative of the mood of the country, which was experiencing a tripling of crime between the 60's and the 90's and a crack cocaine epidemic.  Was it the right solution? No - it had a lot of shitty elements, but it also contained other things like the assault weapons ban that would be very popular today.  In fact it's Trump who now wants to be "tough on crime" and put protesters in jail for a decade if they smash a window.  Using the bill as a way to show Biden isn't perfect is a great idea - using it to suggest Trump is better is a mind-boggling arguement.

3. Glass Steagall - from the horse's mouth "“I’ll be blunt with you: the only vote I can think of that I’ve ever cast in my years in the Senate that I regret—and I did it out of loyalty, and I wasn’t aware that it was gonna be as bad as it was—was Glass-Steagall.”  He **** up, as most people will (regularly) during an almost 50 year career.  Today he wants to tax the rich and increase the power of labour unions. Trumps platform and his actions over the last four years have been to do the polar opposite.  And this highlights another point - Biden will admit when he's wrong. Not always, but a lot more than Trump who will never do anything other than blame someone else.

 4. The Patriot Act - everyone probably associates this with surveillance overreach, but that's a massive simplification. As with most things the truth is a lot more nuanced.  Before I get there I'll get a bit more personal on this one.

On the morning of September 11th 2001 I was in Miami. I left (by car) after the first plane hit, to head to DC to visit a friend (obviously we had no idea what was going on at that point). By the time we made it to DC all exits off the I-95 were shut, so we carried on and ended up staying with another friend in a small town in upstate NY.  A few days later I was on an Amtrak to NYC to catch the second flight out of JFK to get back to London.  I remember looking out of the window and seeing the skyline (I'd been at the top of the twin towers 10 days before) and the smoke still billowing into the air.  I knew people who lived very close by. I knew people who lost relatives. 

I say this because I remember vividly what the mood of the nation was at that time.  It was something that had never been seen before on American soil, and I think it's unsurprising that the pendulum would swing too far in terms of the response.  It's easy for Michael Moore to make a documentary three years later to point out all the overreach, but I'd forgive some decision making that in hindsight looks poor given that legislators were to some degree designing a plane while flying it.  Only one senator (Russ Feingold) voted against it.  Maybe you think that Trump would have vetoed it?  Otherwise I don't get the point of bringing it up.

The bill also included a bunch of things like federal funds for victims of terrorism, as well as increased powers for federal agencies to track and seize money related to terrorist organizations, which I highly doubt that Trump is pushing back on. Again, I don't really see what your point is since the Patriot Act is so broad, and so of a specific time.

5. The Iraq war - I believe Biden called it "a march to peace" when pushing for the war.  He was influential in getting GWB the authority to go to war.  In hindsight most people would agree that at least the premise (WMDs) was false, and that the war was a bad idea. I don't agree with Biden's stance now. Did I think that way in 2003? I honestly can't remember.  Did Trump oppose the war at that time? No. He was writing about pre-emptive strikes on Iraq in 2000, before 9/11.  He would have made exactly the same decision.

6. Afghanistan, Libya, Siria - see above.

7. Opioid epidemic - I'd dispute that it was "on his watch", but either way Republicans did everything they could during the Obama years to regulate pharma in any meaningful way. If you're going to tell me that Trump would have introduced regulations to prevent opioid prescriptions and addiction, I think you're being disingenuous.

8. Student loans / bankruptcy - you have Biden bang to rights on this one, he voted (along with 17 other Dem senators) to pass a Republican-led bill to abolish certain bankruptcy protections around consumer debt in 2005. You could argue that he did so as credit companies had donated hundreds of thousands to his campaign. Shitty move.  He's since come up with a plan to tackle that issue, and while it's too little too late for a lot of people caught in the crosshairs of that bill, he is looking to right a wrong that Trump would not touch in a thousand terms. So yeah, he made another shitty decision - but of the two on the ballot, he's the only one looking to help correct that.

9. ACA - I honestly don't have any knowledge of your point there but I'd love to read more. Can you post something?  I personally think the ACA is deeply flawed and building on it vs having a more robust public option is a mistake, but the ACA was on a macro level a net positive.  It was a long way from perfect, but the intent to expand healthcare is something I'll always get behind. Trump's plan right now (after four years in power, two of which he had the house and senate) is "replace is with something better". There's no plan, no policy - just wind.  If I had to pick Biden or Trump to run healthcare reform for four years I'd trust the guy who has been through the process already with the ACA, has a detailed platform and who's intentions I trust a lot more than Trump.

tl;dr - Biden is deeply flawed (as we all are), but is on almost every level a better choice to be in public office. Biden has **** up many times, but I think Trump under the same circumstances would have been worse.

 

 

 

Thanks for posting VV. I looked through VK's points and had exactly the reasoned response you did. I would have posted something similar but many times in the past I have done that and the poster either disappears into thin air or writes something contrite.

On another note I was in Miami on 9/11 - I'd just moved there about a week before. Nice coincidence!

[Vancvillan]

32 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

I looked through VK's points and had exactly the reasoned response you did.

If I'm honest I wrote it more for people who might pass through the thread and wonder what each of the issues related to. 

The real question I should have finished with (and the only one that matters) is to @villakram - what do you you want to see happen, and why?

32 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

I would have posted something similar but many times in the past I have done that and the poster either disappears into thin air

I think I remember you doing the same when I defended my "sick perversion" in the gun violence thread  . I'm kidding of course - it was a long post.

34 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

On another note I was in Miami on 9/11 - I'd just moved there about a week before.

That's a crazy coincidence - I was probably still walking around humming "It's a small world", which is kind of ironic.  I'm guessing you're in NCY now? If I have one regret, it's that I never lived there for at least a couple of years.  One of my favourite places on earth. Florida less so, but it does have it's own special diversity of crazies there.

[villakram]

 

 

Who says politics isn't fun. I wonder what they'll put together in the last week, lol!

[StefanAVFC]

8 minutes ago, Vancvillan said:

The real question I should have finished with (and the only one that matters) is to @villakram - what do you you want to see happen, and why?

Look below, more shilling  

[villakram]

4 minutes ago, Vancvillan said:

If I'm honest I wrote it more for people who might pass through the thread and wonder what each of the issues related to. 

The real question I should have finished with (and the only one that matters) is to @villakram - what do you you want to see happen, and why?

I think I remember you doing the same when I defended my "sick perversion" in the gun violence thread  . I'm kidding of course - it was a long post.

That's a crazy coincidence - I was probably still walking around humming "It's a small world", which is kind of ironic.  I'm guessing you're in NCY now? If I have one regret, it's that I never lived there for at least a couple of years.  One of my favourite places on earth. Florida less so, but it does have it's own special diversity of crazies there.

Well, how about responding to Trump with actual policies after his election.

Instead we got the Russia nonsense and then a re-hash of failed neo-liberal politics with Biden.

All the while happily passing massive budget bills and a CARE act that was a giveaway to the wealthy.

Joe Biden solves nothing. The emperor will once again have wonderful new clothes, no more.

[villakram]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

Look below, more shilling  

Ad-hominem, again.

[StefanAVFC]

2 minutes ago, villakram said:

Well, how about responding to Trump with actual policies after his election.

Like separating children from their parents eh

[Vancvillan]

1 minute ago, villakram said:

Well, how about responding to Trump with actual policies after his election.

Instead we got the Russia nonsense and then a re-hash of failed neo-liberal politics with Biden.

All the while happily passing massive budget bills and a CARE act that was a giveaway to the wealthy.

Joe Biden solves nothing. The emperor will once again have wonderful new clothes, no more.

What do you you want to see happen, and why?

I ask because right now it is a binary choice, and saying "they are both terrible, we should all just build a cabin in the woods and hide" isn't that practical or productive.

[il_serpente]

31 minutes ago, villakram said:

Well, how about responding to Trump with actual policies after his election.

How, exactly?  A new President, whose party controls both houses of Congress, starts gaslighting the country on his inauguration day and proceeds to issue disruptive executive orders on travel with no implementation plan, etc.  There's little choice but to be reactive, and no avenue for putting forth any legislative proposals and no oxygen in the room to even discuss much of anything.

40 minutes ago, villakram said:

Instead we got the Russia nonsense and then a re-hash of failed neo-liberal politics with Biden.

It was his own AG who recused himself and his Deputy AG, a Republican, who appointed Muller.   And Trump did as much as anyone to keep it alive by constantly polishing Putin's rocket in public and refusing to acknowledge that Russia tried to help him and instead accusing Obama of spying on him and continuing whining about it.   Biden wasn't even in the picture.

48 minutes ago, villakram said:

All the while happily passing massive budget bills and a CARE act that was a giveaway to the wealthy.

I'd say the giveaway to the wealthy part of it was more the administration's doing.   And there were a few million non-wealthy for whom it was a lifesaver, but let's not mention that.

52 minutes ago, villakram said:

Joe Biden solves nothing. The emperor will once again have wonderful new clothes, no more.

Joe Biden won't celebrate the most repugnant dictators, won't try undermine the public's faith in any portion of the government that's not doing his personal bidding, lie blatantly 10,000+ times, embolden far-right and white supremacist groups to come out of the shadows, use official government events as partisan political rallies to bash his adversaries, won't alienate our progressive allies,  etc.   And he won't **** tweet dozens of times every day.

[LondonLax]

Here’s a cheerful article 

Quote

Is the U.S. Already in a New Civil War?

Experts say that a new civil conflict will look nothing like the last American Civil War, but that the country is on the verge of large scale political violence.

https://www.vice.com/amp/en/article/qjp48x/is-the-us-already-in-a-new-civil-war?__twitter_impression=true

[Wainy316]

I want Trump to suffer the indignity of having to continue his presidential duties for 2 months knowing he’s been ousted.

[LondonLax]

1 minute ago, Wainy316 said:

I want Trump to suffer the indignity of having to continue his presidential duties for 2 months knowing he’s been ousted.

He won’t be sitting on his thumbs, he’ll likely take a case of ‘Mail in Voter Fraud’ to his newly appointed Supreme Court to get a ruling on who won the election.

[Chindie]

Certain members of the Supreme Court are already making noises about the 'decision on the night' being the result of the election.

Because the chances are this election is not going to get a definitive answer within a day of the polls closing and the longer it runs the worse it's likely to be for Trump - so they want to sow the idea that not having a decision ASAP is indicative of fraud.

[ender4]

39 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

I want Trump to suffer the indignity of having to continue his presidential duties for 2 months knowing he’s been ousted.

He'll try and wreck every law, policy, office, funding, etc in deliberate vandalism during that time.

[ml1dch]

42 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Because the chances are this election is not going to get a definitive answer within a day of the polls closing 

A definitive answer would be virtually impossible in that time frame.

However an indicative one is still pretty likely - the likes of Florida, Arizona and North Carolina are all pretty likely to have an indicative result and be called one way or the other within 24 hours. And if they are going Trump then it's probably likely that he'll win the whole thing.

If they go Biden, then there will be no grounds for stopping anything, and no reason for Trump to want to as they'll be his only (very slim in those circumstances) chance of winning. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by ml1dch