U.S. Politics

[LondonLax]

7 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

social healthcare?

He wants a US version of the NHS that covers every service and every procedure including vision and dental with no cost to the patient.You don’t get that level of government funded healthcare in many places in the world. 

[mjmooney]

[fruitvilla]

25 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

He wants a US version of the NHS that covers every service and every procedure including vision and dental with no cost to the patient.You don’t get that level of government funded healthcare in many places in the world. 

I just googled .... "bernie sanders compared to european politicians"
A couple of hits suggested that ...
In the European – and particularly the postwar German – political tradition I come from, there would be no question that Sanders is, in fact, a “social democrat.” That is not a radical or controversial label in the least. link

That Sanders wants to improve their lot is not in question. Some leftists choose purism over half a loaf, but he tends to vote for what redistributive measures come before him in Congress. He would give Americans universal healthcare, statutory paid leave and other staples of the developed world. This has encouraged the notion that he – and his rival Elizabeth Warren – would Europeanise the US link

 

 

[Loxstock92]

57 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

He wants a US version of the NHS that covers every service and every procedure including vision and dental with no cost to the patient.You don’t get that level of government funded healthcare in many places in the world. 

This is what I don’t think I’ll ever get with Americans attitude to socialised healthcare. 
 

A lot of people don’t want to pay increased taxes as the main reason (fair enough no one wants to pay more in taxes) however considering the insurance premiums over there, it’s waaaaaaay more than if it were paid for through taxation without realising this fact. 
 

It’s amazing how Americans have been conditioned to go against their own interests on this particular issue.

I was speaking to a trump supporter about this before Xmas. Their idea of socialised medicine (our NHS) is that any proposed treatment had to be authorised by the government before proceeding, so nothing can be done on the spot.

when I explained this wasn’t the case, doctors decided, blew their mind. Almost like too good to be true.

[villakram]

3 hours ago, Rolta said:

I mean last I heard Trump was against this, and he was certainly against fifteen dollars. 

I think you have the wrong impression of how most people view American politics. Everyone pretty much looks right or right of centre in the USA. But having said that only one party was trying to create a more inclusive health system. 

Nobody doubts that the neoliberalism began by the republican Reagan hasn't also been a taint on the democrats too. Yet I'm not sure how different republican policies really are at the end of the day to neoliberalism. Both favour low regulation, low state interference, and a free market. Neither would be in favour of socialised healthcare. Are you sure you're on the right side? You sound like you should be a fan of 'the squad'. 

What did Trump actually do to help normal Americans?

Rubbish.

"it's Joe Biden vs universal healthcare" Jim Clyburn, the SC congressman and dem party kingmaker during the primary process.

Who said republicans were not also in favor of neo-liberal policies, e.g., see the long history between the Bush and Clinton clans? 

[fruitvilla]

22 minutes ago, Loxstock92 said:

A lot of people don’t want to pay increased taxes as the main reason (fair enough no one wants to pay more in taxes) however considering the insurance premiums over there, it’s waaaaaaay more than if it were paid for through taxation without realising this fact. 

Oh it's the principle of paying for someone else's premiums that is the issue.

23 minutes ago, Loxstock92 said:

Their idea of socialised medicine (our NHS) is that any proposed treatment had to be authorised by the government before proceeding, so nothing can be done on the spot.

To be fair ... the wait lists may be longer. I remember as a teenager I was put on a wait list for some ENT surgery. I did not want it or thought I needed it. (My parents were being overly protective). About ten years later I get a letter from the NHS saying they are ready here is an appointment. I politely cancelled the surgery. I suspect in the US it would have happened.

[sidcow]

11 hours ago, Loxstock92 said:

This is what I don’t think I’ll ever get with Americans attitude to socialised healthcare. 
 

A lot of people don’t want to pay increased taxes as the main reason (fair enough no one wants to pay more in taxes) however considering the insurance premiums over there, it’s waaaaaaay more than if it were paid for through taxation without realising this fact. 
 

It’s amazing how Americans have been conditioned to go against their own interests on this particular issue.

I was speaking to a trump supporter about this before Xmas. Their idea of socialised medicine (our NHS) is that any proposed treatment had to be authorised by the government before proceeding, so nothing can be done on the spot.

when I explained this wasn’t the case, doctors decided, blew their mind. Almost like too good to be true.

A lot of the resistance is from powerful lobby from the private Healthcare companies who of course earn eye-watering amounts of money out of the premiums, are massively profitable and chuck huge sums at politicians to ensure free Healthcare remains a dirty word. 

Generally Americans are hugely anti free Healthcare whilst they are employed and in a sponsored plan and generally don't need it too much. It then hits home massively when they are unemployed or get old and can't afford the premiums and actually need it. 

My Aunt lived in America most of her life, after a brief return in the early 90s she only came back to the UK in her late 60s and her husband 70s (they had got divorced hence her move back here then, they remarried). 

He had all sorts of health problems he couldn't afford to get sorted in USA despite working all his life and being quite successful. It literally did blow his mind that he could just go to the doctors and book hospital appointments to get his various ailments fixed completely free.  I do mean that, blew his mind.  Even my Aunt who lived here till she was 20 and again in the 90s just couldn't quite get her head around it. 

Can I add how as a UK taxpayer I was delighted about this. 

Anyway I think the US aversion to free healthcare is a bit like the (until 10 years ago) British aversion to Gin.  The beer industry had spent heavily on discediting gin and developing people's views it was evil. Mothers ruin was invented by the beer industry who also commissioned famous artist William Hogarth to paint the following pictures showing smart, respectable Beer Street on the left and seedy, downtrodden Gin Lane on the right. 

 

And of course lobbied politicians to treat Gin as evil leading to restrictions on Gin and for 200 years Beer becomes the most popular drink, and even 200 year's later Gin was still considered a down market drink until hipsters were invented. 

The same kind of behaviour/campaigns have been waged by Healthcare companies and it still resonates in the American psyche. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by sidcow

[Loxstock92]

3 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

Oh it's the principle of paying for someone else's premiums that is the issue

Yeah I get that, for a country with a large Christian population the whole ‘love thy neighbour’ they love to preach annoys me with the hypocrisy of it all. That’s why I don’t believe Christianity really exists in America as a whole, just some weird adopted version of it, much in the same way communism never really existed in the Soviet Union, no matter how much they tried to achieve it. 

[Loxstock92]

5 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Generally Americans are hugely anti free Healthcare whilst they are employed and in a sponsored plan and generally don't need it too much.

Yeah I can see that, that’s why a lot of people were annoyed when obamacare came in I guess. Still you see some horror stories where people are being charged the equivalent of half a months salary for premiums for a family of 4 per month, then you’ve got deductibles, co-pays on top which can run into the thousands. 
 

They only need to look to the rest of the world to see how many medical bankruptcies other developed nations have to see they’re being screwed over. I guess they may also have an attitude of ‘it’ll never happen to me’ or ‘my insurance will definitely cover it’ until it doesn’t then you’re left with the bill. I couldn’t live like that. 

[sidcow]

4 minutes ago, Loxstock92 said:

Yeah I can see that, that’s why a lot of people were annoyed when obamacare came in I guess. Still you see some horror stories where people are being charged the equivalent of half a months salary for premiums for a family of 4 per month, then you’ve got deductibles, co-pays on top which can run into the thousands. 
 

They only need to look to the rest of the world to see how many medical bankruptcies other developed nations have to see they’re being screwed over. I guess they may also have an attitude of ‘it’ll never happen to me’ or ‘my insurance will definitely cover it’ until it doesn’t then you’re left with the bill. I couldn’t live like that. 

I had to have a totally non urgent operation 15 or so years ago, a small hernia. 

I have private medical through work.  I could have waited a month for the NHS or gone private with a £500 excess. 

I thought **** that, I'll wait and get it done for free. 

When I eventually got there the surgeon completely disagreed with the consultant I'd seen and said it's so small the risk of complications through even minor surgery just weren't worth it.  So I didn't bother.  Lived with it still. 

I could have gone private and lost £500, and I wonder if the private surgeon would have talked me out of it. 

[Loxstock92]

18 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I have private medical through work.  I could have waited a month for the NHS or gone private with a £500 excess. 

Guess it depends on how bad the situation is. My wife ended up going private for an ingrown toenail after GP removed it but it grew back and she had 12 rounds of antibiotics for it (no exaggeration. She got fed up in the end and thought, sod it I’m going private. 
 

for me private medicine has its place, I don’t think the argument should be one or the other, rather give people who can’t afford the insane costs some level of healthcare instead of none.

[TheAuthority]

6 hours ago, Loxstock92 said:

This is what I don’t think I’ll ever get with Americans attitude to socialised healthcare. 
 

A lot of people don’t want to pay increased taxes as the main reason (fair enough no one wants to pay more in taxes) however considering the insurance premiums over there, it’s waaaaaaay more than if it were paid for through taxation without realising this fact. 
 

Partly LoxStock, but a much larger part is the idea of rugged individualism and "I don't want the government doing anything for me" syndrome. This concept has been pushed by the GOP because the health care industry bribe (lobby) them to cultivate this idea.

"Healthcare is a responsibility, not a right." This was the slogan that Paul Ryan et al. were using when they tried to deem ObamaCare unlawful allowing them to vote in Trump's bigger, more beautiful, better, cheaper healthcare plan. Yeah, shame we missed out on that plan 
 

Spoiler

There was no plan

America has wasted the last 4 years on this ridiculous experiment of an 'outsider' or whatever justification Trump voters told themselves. It will probably take 4 - 6 years to get back to where we were in 2016.

[mjmooney]

[magnkarl]

I sat in on an American Politics class on zoom today and the professor put a highlight on "mid-western working man" Josh Hawley. The students were shown clips of Hawley complaining to Fox about how he's constantly being silenced and censored, yet highlighted that the man has been on Fox 3 times in the last week, has 0.5 million people following him on twitter and was for punishing Kapernik and NHL players who took the knee against racism. Is it me or is the republican party disintegrating when the "up and coming" are Josh Hawley, Cotton, Cruz et. all?

Hawley likes to show himself as a "midtown working class man", when in reality he went to private school, Yale and has taken money from all sorts of dubious types to get to where he is. I hope his PHD is in projection, because he's a world champ at it.

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by magnkarl

[Rolta]

13 hours ago, villakram said:

Rubbish.

"it's Joe Biden vs universal healthcare" Jim Clyburn, the SC congressman and dem party kingmaker during the primary process.

Who said republicans were not also in favor of neo-liberal policies, e.g., see the long history between the Bush and Clinton clans? 

I read a lot of your posts and I'm often not sure why you bother replying. The bit in bold is very low effort. You've written a sentence that doesn't seem to link to anything, and you've shoved your subject/verb into some quotes, making it pretty much incomprehensible. This kind of thing seems to be a trend, and I'm left wondering, what am I supposed to get from this?

Your 'arguments' (often not in coherent sentences) often seem to include elements that contradict what you previously said or what you seem to stand for.

The one bit I can latch onto is the last thing you said—Who said republicans were not also in favor of neo-liberal policies—well, your constant sniping at any minute detail of any decision or thought of anyone linked to the Democrats, and your simultaneous constant criticism of neo-liberalism along with your support for the Republicans makes it really seem as if you do think the Republicans are some force against neo-liberalism. You're like a Burnley fan opposed to violence in sport who thinks Ben Mee is an upstanding and honest player just because he's 'on your team'. As for how you present your thoughts on neoliberalism on this board, you always seem to think you're the one 'in the know', but don't forget in the UK we have some uber neo-liberals in government, and a lot of people on here are vocally opposed to them and are adamant that they're a bunch of self-serving words removed.

You never answered my question though: how did Trump oppose neoliberalism? His rhetoric sounds pretty neoliberal to me. And he did oppose the minimum wage as recently as October: “How are you helping your small businesses when you’re forcing wages?” Trump asked. “What’s going to happen and what’s been proven to happen is when you do that, these small businesses fire many of their employees.”

Which is about as neoliberal an excuse to oppose minimum wage as it gets. There's always an excuse to oppose progressive policies.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Rolta

[meregreen]

13 hours ago, Loxstock92 said:

Guess it depends on how bad the situation is. My wife ended up going private for an ingrown toenail after GP removed it but it grew back and she had 12 rounds of antibiotics for it (no exaggeration. She got fed up in the end and thought, sod it I’m going private. 
 

for me private medicine has its place, I don’t think the argument should be one or the other, rather give people who can’t afford the insane costs some level of healthcare instead of none.

The problem with that, is many of the people in power are more likely than not users of private medicine. They don’t have a vested interest in the NHS, the way we do. Much the same as their children using private schools. Until they rely on the same provision as us, many of them will continue to pay lip service to Public services, while secretly not giving a toss.

[villakram]

16 hours ago, sidcow said:

I had to have a totally non urgent operation 15 or so years ago, a small hernia. 

I have private medical through work.  I could have waited a month for the NHS or gone private with a £500 excess. 

I thought **** that, I'll wait and get it done for free. 

When I eventually got there the surgeon completely disagreed with the consultant I'd seen and said it's so small the risk of complications through even minor surgery just weren't worth it.  So I didn't bother.  Lived with it still. 

I could have gone private and lost £500, and I wonder if the private surgeon would have talked me out of it. 

There is nothing, that cannot be fixed by surgery over here. It is straight up frightening to be in a hospital long enough for word to get around about your "condition" (especially if insured!).

[Brumerican]

Just now, villakram said:

There is nothing, that cannot be fixed by surgery over here. It is straight up frightening to be in a hospital long enough for word to get around about your "condition" (especially if insured!).

They did air Scrubs in Europe so we are very much in the loop.

[villakram]

3 hours ago, Rolta said:

I read a lot of your posts and I'm often not sure why you bother replying. The bit in bold is very low effort. You've written a sentence that doesn't seem to link to anything, and you've shoved your subject/verb into some quotes, making it pretty much incomprehensible. This kind of thing seems to be a trend, and I'm left wondering, what am I supposed to get from this?

Your 'arguments' (often not in coherent sentences) often seem to include elements that contradict what you previously said or what you seem to stand for.

The one bit I can latch onto is the last thing you said—Who said republicans were not also in favor of neo-liberal policies—well, your constant sniping at any minute detail of any decision or thought of anyone linked to the Democrats, and your simultaneous constant criticism of neo-liberalism along with your support for the Republicans makes it really seem as if you do think the Republicans are some force against neo-liberalism. You're like a Burnley fan opposed to violence in sport who thinks Ben Mee is an upstanding and honest player just because he's 'on your team'. As for how you present your thoughts on neoliberalism on this board, you always seem to think you're the one 'in the know', but don't forget in the UK we have some uber neo-liberals in government, and a lot of people on here are vocally opposed to them and are adamant that they're a bunch of self-serving words removed.

You never answered my question though: how did Trump oppose neoliberalism? His rhetoric sounds pretty neoliberal to me. And he did oppose the minimum wage as recently as October: “How are you helping your small businesses when you’re forcing wages?” Trump asked. “What’s going to happen and what’s been proven to happen is when you do that, these small businesses fire many of their employees.”

Which is about as neoliberal an excuse to oppose minimum wage as it gets. There's always an excuse to oppose progressive policies.

It is not my job to educate you, and this is not a writing competition. It is never nice to have an uncomfortable piece of information jammed in your face. I will try write in a milder manner in the future. 

Joe Biden is avidly against universal healthcare. He is a democrat. He personally oversaw the killing of any effort at universal healthcare during the Obama presidency.  

Neo-liberalism has many facits. 

Trump's/Republican trickle down economics is a known quantity and has a long history. There was no claim from me that this was not a happy bed-fellow with neo-liberal land. You see, here is the thing. Reverse that and it is also true.

 

 

 

[Loxstock92]

44 minutes ago, villakram said:

Trump's/Republican trickle down economics is a known quantity and has a long history.

It’s also been proven to not work.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-21/trickle-down-economics-fails-a-sophisticated-statistical-test