RunRickyRun Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 10 hours ago, DCJonah said: Why Trump as the cult leader? Why did this never happen with other republican presidents? You've got people who believe God sent this man to lead the world and others that believe he will take down the worlds pedophile ring. And yet there is so much factual proof that he's just a complete piece of shit. I just don't get why Trump. There's a really good interview with Steve Bannon on the PBS frontline youtube channel where he goes into great depth on how he helped cultivate the image of Trump as a popularist (sic - Trump's own definition). This is obviously not an endorsement of Bannon or Trump but it's rare to have such a candid first-hand interview with someone who had such a decisive hand in a president's election so definitely worth watching if you are interested. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2021 44 minutes ago, villakram said: It is not a conspiracy. You interpreted it as so. Biden is a neo-liberal politician. Neo-liberal policies are at the root of the economic problems that riddle society in it's current iteration. I have been pretty consistent in saying this, and the plots in that blog post did a rather good job of illustrating the effects of these policies. You dragged up conspiracy theory to smear and discredit my comment. This was after a pretty low ad-hominem, bordering on the kind of thing that should be prohibited on these boards. If only he was more of a Communist like Trump, the man of the people for the people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted February 10, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 hours ago, villakram said: You dragged up conspiracy theory to smear and discredit my comment. This was after a pretty low ad-hominem, bordering on the kind of thing that should be prohibited on these boards. I'm sorry I upset you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rolta said: Shouldn't you really be throwing your wait behind Bernie? In what way, out if interest, did Trump counter neoliberalism? I'm pretty sure I saw Trump handing out plenty of tax cuts. I'm not sure there are many vocal champions of neoliberalism in these posts. I have... on many occasion, but interestingly the Dem establishment having been demonstrated to be actively working against Bernie (and that's an incredibly generous description of their behavior), has gotten away scott free with it. The same Dem establishment of Biden/Clinton/Obama/Pelosi/Schumer. There may not be vocal champions, but the support is implicit. The republicans are just being republicans, same old, same old, e.g., in this case, a corporate tax re-patriation holidays like clockwork every 10-15 years. Edited February 10, 2021 by villakram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 I watched all the Day 2 of the trial and then I see later Lindsey Graham saying it was offensive and absurd what the House Managers laid out and it was pushing more people to 'No' vote in the Republicans. I was flabbergasted by him saying that, I've used to being numb to the stupid things some of these politicians say but after the powerful presentation yesterday, no sane human being could say that it was offensive and absurd. I know it's all political and they will stick to their wrong unconstitutional argument or free speech argument or their cant connect Trump to the mob argument, which is all ridiculous but we knew that there weren't 17 Republican Senators going to vote to convict Trump whatever he did. We thought the joke about shooting somebody on 5th avenue was an extreme, I guess donald Trump said "Hold my beer" when he incited the insurrection because there arent many things worse you could do. We knew some/many of the Republicans would side with him, we knew a small number would be very public about defending him but to say yesterday was offensive and absurd is so way off in bonkers land, I dont know how he did it with a straight face. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, nick76 said: I watched all the Day 2 of the trial and then I see later Lindsey Graham saying it was offensive and absurd what the House Managers laid out and it was pushing more people to 'No' vote in the Republicans. I was flabbergasted by him saying that, I've used to being numb to the stupid things some of these politicians say but after the powerful presentation yesterday, no sane human being could say that it was offensive and absurd. I know it's all political and they will stick to their wrong unconstitutional argument or free speech argument or their cant connect Trump to the mob argument, which is all ridiculous but we knew that there weren't 17 Republican Senators going to vote to convict Trump whatever he did. We thought the joke about shooting somebody on 5th avenue was an extreme, I guess donald Trump said "Hold my beer" when he incited the insurrection because there arent many things worse you could do. We knew some/many of the Republicans would side with him, we knew a small number would be very public about defending him but to say yesterday was offensive and absurd is so way off in bonkers land, I dont know how he did it with a straight face. He's a politician, they have to be good at saying whatever with a straight face. The simple truth is that he would have said the presentation 'pushed Republicans to vote No' no matter what; saying that fulfils the dual purpose of pretending that he was open-minded at the start of the process and setting up his inevitable vote to acquit. The only effect that matters is if the case laid out turns off enough mild Republican or right-leaning independent voters that future candidates treat 'pretend the election was stolen' as a third rail, or if they make it part of their routine from now on. The outcome of the trial itself has never been in doubt. Edited February 11, 2021 by HanoiVillan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted February 11, 2021 Author Share Posted February 11, 2021 1 hour ago, nick76 said: I watched all the Day 2 of the trial and then I see later Lindsey Graham saying it was offensive and absurd what the House Managers laid out and it was pushing more people to 'No' vote in the Republicans. I was flabbergasted by him saying that, I've used to being numb to the stupid things some of these politicians say but after the powerful presentation yesterday, no sane human being could say that it was offensive and absurd. I know it's all political and they will stick to their wrong unconstitutional argument or free speech argument or their cant connect Trump to the mob argument, which is all ridiculous but we knew that there weren't 17 Republican Senators going to vote to convict Trump whatever he did. We thought the joke about shooting somebody on 5th avenue was an extreme, I guess donald Trump said "Hold my beer" when he incited the insurrection because there arent many things worse you could do. We knew some/many of the Republicans would side with him, we knew a small number would be very public about defending him but to say yesterday was offensive and absurd is so way off in bonkers land, I dont know how he did it with a straight face. Graham is human sewage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 Meanwhile on OAN . . . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 I watched the end of the proceedings yesterday ... The "President" of the house did no inspire confidence in me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 18 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: I watched the end of the proceedings yesterday ... The "President" of the house did no inspire confidence in me. Sorry I dont understand, what has that got to do with anything? That was a much ado about nothing, it was just a procedure that they didnt know how to handle because it never comes up but we never normally have this situation. After 8 hours that's what you pick up? Anyway during this his role is very limited apart from really reading the Parliamentarian's process and rule decision, he doesnt really do anything else on his own (apart from his own juror duties). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: He's a politician, they have to be good at saying whatever with a straight face. The simple truth is that he would have said the presentation 'pushed Republicans to vote No' no matter what; saying that fulfils the dual purpose of pretending that he was open-minded at the start of the process and setting up his inevitable vote to acquit. The only effect that matters is if the case laid out turns off enough mild Republican or right-leaning independent voters that future candidates treat 'pretend the election was stolen' as a third rail, or if they make it part of their routine from now on. The outcome of the trial itself has never been in doubt. Thing about Lindsey Graham is that he wasnt open minded to start with, he's always said this trial is a sham. I think with Georgia (Fulton County) opening a legal investigation about the election, it looks like Graham may have some legal exposure along with Mr Trump given the initial requests coming from that investigation. Trump could be in real trouble. As for the Impeachment, it was, as you say, always a foregone conclusion that he wasnt going to be convicted and only 5-10 Republicans would vote to convict alongside the 50 Dem's and I always expected the Republicans to defend Trump, I was just baffled by Graham's more than usual stupid comment on the day. Like you said he was always going to say it wasnt enough to convict, that the case ...........'insert reason'.....was moving more towards a 'No' verdict but to say yesterday was "Offensive and Absurd" was even bad for him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 30 minutes ago, nick76 said: Thing about Lindsey Graham is that he wasnt open minded to start with, he's always said this trial is a sham. I think with Georgia (Fulton County) opening a legal investigation about the election, it looks like Graham may have some legal exposure along with Mr Trump given the initial requests coming from that investigation. Trump could be in real trouble. As for the Impeachment, it was, as you say, always a foregone conclusion that he wasnt going to be convicted and only 5-10 Republicans would vote to convict alongside the 50 Dem's and I always expected the Republicans to defend Trump, I was just baffled by Graham's more than usual stupid comment on the day. Like you said he was always going to say it wasnt enough to convict, that the case ...........'insert reason'.....was moving more towards a 'No' verdict but to say yesterday was "Offensive and Absurd" was even bad for him. Agreed. My personal estimate is that there will be between 4 and 6 GOP votes to convict; will be interesting to see if it falls outside that bound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 Dems making a token effort to get $15 minimum wage by 2025 into the relief bill during reconciliation talks. See, they do care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolta Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 28 minutes ago, villakram said: Dems making a token effort to get $15 minimum wage by 2025 into the relief bill during reconciliation talks. See, they do care. I mean last I heard Trump was against this, and he was certainly against fifteen dollars. I think you have the wrong impression of how most people view American politics. Everyone pretty much looks right or right of centre in the USA. But having said that only one party was trying to create a more inclusive health system. Nobody doubts that the neoliberalism began by the republican Reagan hasn't also been a taint on the democrats too. Yet I'm not sure how different republican policies really are at the end of the day to neoliberalism. Both favour low regulation, low state interference, and a free market. Neither would be in favour of socialised healthcare. Are you sure you're on the right side? You sound like you should be a fan of 'the squad'. What did Trump actually do to help normal Americans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 1 hour ago, nick76 said: That was a much ado about nothing, it was just a procedure that they didnt know how to handle because it never comes up but we never normally have this situation My point was the President did not seem to understand the point being made. Whether it much ado or nothing I will let you decide. But the last hour or so I watched this was the thing I noticed and was not aware of. I can't comment on the rest of the proceedings as I did not see them. 1 hour ago, nick76 said: Sorry I dont understand, what has that got to do with anything? A part of US politics? If you want my opinion of the last four years, all you have to do is ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Rolta said: I mean last I heard Trump was against this, and he was certainly against fifteen dollars. I think you have the wrong impression of how most people view American politics. Everyone pretty much looks right or right of centre in the USA. But having said that only one party was trying to create a more inclusive health system. Nobody doubts that the neoliberalism began by the republican Reagan hasn't also been a taint on the democrats too. Yet I'm not sure how different republican policies really are at the end of the day to neoliberalism. Both favour low regulation, low state interference, and a free market. Neither would be in favour of socialised healthcare. Are you sure you're on the right side? You sound like you should be a fan of 'the squad'. What did Trump actually do to help normal Americans? I think our man villakram might be a ‘BernieBro’ who saw his hopes crushed in 2016 and turned towards the ‘Burn it all down!’ Trump vote. There is a surprisingly large number of people who support Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump as outsider candidates who would break up the duopoly. That crowd seemed to be keen on Tulsi Gabbard for the Democratic nomination this time round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 3 minutes ago, LondonLax said: There is a surprisingly large number of people who support Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump as outsider candidates who would break up the duopoly. The problem with Sanders is that US has moved so far to the "right", now he seems insanely left, whereas in reality he is probably fairly middle of the road. Having said that the "soak the rich" rhetoric always goes down well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: The problem with Sanders is that US has moved so far to the "right", now he seems insanely left, whereas in reality he is probably fairly middle of the road. Having said that the "soak the rich" rhetoric always goes down well. I’d say he’s fairly ‘left wing’ by most western countries standards. Quite a few of his policies are to the left of the Labour government here in Sweden (anti nuclear, pro marijuana, reduction in defence spending etc). Could you cite the policies of his you think would be considered ‘middle of the road’? I know he’s more relaxed on gun ownership than left wing governments in most countries would be but from reading though his political positions that’s about it. https://www.politico.com/2020-election/candidates-views-on-the-issues/bernie-sanders/ Edited February 11, 2021 by LondonLax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 11, 2021 Moderator Share Posted February 11, 2021 28 minutes ago, LondonLax said: I think our man villakram might be a ‘BernieBro’ who saw his hopes crushed in 2016 and turned towards the ‘Burn it all down!’ Trump vote. He doesn't have a vote 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 1 minute ago, LondonLax said: I’d say he’s fairly ‘left wing’ by most western countries standards. Could you cite the policies of his you think would be considered ‘middle of the road’? social healthcare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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