U.S. Politics

[HanoiVillan]

4 hours ago, blandy said:

The solution to that is in what @magnkarlposted. Financial self interest.

When people see that they can power their homes etc. cheaper by having renewable energy, that becomes a powerful anti-dote to the Fox News drivel and all the rest. Basically "Dear Texan, you can have cheaper bills and non-dependence on state utilities, or you can feel like you "own the Libs" - which would you like?"

 

4 hours ago, mjmooney said:

My gut feeling is that they'd rather own the libs. 

It depends on the extent of the financial self-interest. People are willing to pay a price for their policy preferences, it just isn't infinite. Energy companies and state governments are more susceptible to price pressure than individual consumers anyway, because governments can always subsidise consumers in the case of high prices, and there are ways for lower production costs not to be translated into lower bills (most obviously, expanded energy company profit margins or increased taxation).

[OutByEaster?]

35 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Governments can always subsidise consumers in the case of high prices.

I'm not sure that's still true in an era of Investor state dispute courts and trade deals.

I remember reading something in a Naomi Klein about a part of Canada where the existing industry had died out and they had loads of empty factories. The government there decided to invest in companies that would retool the factories, using the existing skill base and going into manufacturing Solar panels, they also gave out government grants to the public to make the solar panels affordable and publicised it - the take up was good, the factories reopened, the skills of the workforce were easily transferable and the area became something of a leader in the Solar energy field whilst thousands of people were able to reduce their energy bills with renewable energy.

An investor claims court found the government guilty of interfering with the local energy market to the detriment of existing energy suppliers and energy suppliers from other countries (essentially, American coal) and as a result the government grants ended, all funding was removed, some punitive fines were issued, costs went up and eventually the factories closed again.

 

[HanoiVillan]

39 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I'm not sure that's still true in an era of Investor state dispute courts and trade deals.

I remember reading something in a Naomi Klein about a part of Canada where the existing industry had died out and they had loads of empty factories. The government there decided to invest in companies that would retool the factories, using the existing skill base and going into manufacturing Solar panels, they also gave out government grants to the public to make the solar panels affordable and publicised it - the take up was good, the factories reopened, the skills of the workforce were easily transferable and the area became something of a leader in the Solar energy field whilst thousands of people were able to reduce their energy bills with renewable energy.

An investor claims court found the government guilty of interfering with the local energy market to the detriment of existing energy suppliers and energy suppliers from other countries (essentially, American coal) and as a result the government grants ended, all funding was removed, some punitive fines were issued, costs went up and eventually the factories closed again.

 

That's quite possibly true, but I was thinking of something more simple like consumer price caps (as we have in the UK).

EDIT: I would love to read more about the situation you're describing though ObE, if you remember any more details  . . .

Edited February 18, 2021 by HanoiVillan

[blandy]

2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

There's no one in America that is going to give the American people that message.

I know what you're getting at, but on the other hand, America is quite good at y'know, stuff like selling stuff, in this case Solar panels. Setting up industries and tech and wotnot. Not all of (even Texas) will be redneck type republicans - there will be enough non "own the libs" folk who would be receptive to cheaper cleaner energy, marketed and delivered to them by a good ol' American company standing up for the individual and delivering independence and savings in cash, surely?

[OutByEaster?]

45 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

That's quite possibly true, but I was thinking of something more simple like consumer price caps (as we have in the UK).

EDIT: I would love to read more about the situation you're describing though ObE, if you remember any more details  . . .

https://thischangeseverything.org/the-price-of-free-trade-is-unchecked-climate-change/

There's some stuff on it there - it looks like the key bit I'd forgotten was that the thing they were being sued on was the insistence that the local workforce was used - high local wages and working conditions seem to be what investors elsewhere were annoyed by. Apologies that I seem to have sexed it up! 

Quote

The WTO ruled against Canada, determining that Ontario’s buy-local provisions were indeed illegal. And the province wasted little time in nixing the local-content rules that had been so central to its program. It was this, Mr. Maccario said, that led his foreign investors to pull their support for factory expansion. “Seeing all those, for lack of a better term, mixed messages … was the straw that broke the camel’s back.”

 

[OutByEaster?]

4 minutes ago, blandy said:

I know what you're getting at, but on the other hand, America is quite good at y'know, stuff like selling stuff, in this case Solar panels. Setting up industries and tech and wotnot. Not all of (even Texas) will be redneck type republicans - there will be enough non "own the libs" folk who would be receptive to cheaper cleaner energy, marketed and delivered to them by a good ol' American company standing up for the individual and delivering independence and savings in cash, surely?

America is quite good at making sure they're selling the stuff that makes them most money - I think the folks selling coal and gas based energy would be the ones drowning out that message. Cheaper energy is very often bad business.

 

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

America is quite good at making sure they're selling the stuff that makes them most money - I think the folks selling coal and gas based energy would be the ones drowning out that message. Cheaper energy is very often bad business.

Yet (having just Mooney'd it), US solar power and renewable energy growth is seriously rapid.

Pikliwedia says

Quote

 In terms of total cumulative installed capacity, by year end 2017 the United States ranked 2nd in the world behind China. In 2016, 39% of all new electricity generation capacity in the country came from solar, more than any other source and ahead of natural gas (29%).^[3] By 2015, solar employment had overtaken oil and gas as well as coal employment in the United States.^[4] In 2016, more than 260,000 Americans were employed in the solar industry...

&

According to preliminary data from the US Energy Information Administration, renewable energy accounted for about 11% of total primary energy consumption^[3] and about 17% of the domestically produced electricity in the United States in 2018.^[2][4] Hydroelectric power is currently the largest producer of renewable electricity in the country, generating around 6.5% of the nation's total electricity in 2016 as well as 45.71% of the total renewable electricity generation.^[2] The United States is the fourth largest producer of hydroelectricity in the world after China, Canada and Brazil.

The next largest share of renewable power was provided by wind power at 5.55% of total power production, amounting to 226.5 terawatt-hours during 2016.^[2] By January 2017, the United States nameplate generating capacity for wind power was 82,183 megawatts (MW).^[5] Texas remained firmly established as the leader in wind power deployment, followed by Iowa and Oklahoma as of year end 2016.^[6]

 

[OutByEaster?]

Good! 

(and especially that Texas appears to be a lead state)

[villakram]

Solar and wind are all well and good, but a baseload is required and don't start spouting battery nonsense. Gas plants are how it should be now in any cost vs pollution calculation, but longer term some nuclear will need to be included.

Unless, of course the main goal here is just to generate new business ventures.

Also, notably zero discussion about how solar and wind facilities are generated, replaced and re-cycled, much akin to the way the implicit and legacy costs of fossil fuels are ignored.

[LondonLax]

44 minutes ago, villakram said:

Solar and wind are all well and good, but a baseload is required and don't start spouting battery nonsense. Gas plants are how it should be now in any cost vs pollution calculation, but longer term some nuclear will need to be included.

Unless, of course the main goal here is just to generate new business ventures.

Also, notably zero discussion about how solar and wind facilities are generated, replaced and re-cycled, much akin to the way the implicit and legacy costs of fossil fuels are ignored.

The baseload power myth was debunked years ago but is still pushed by the fossil fuel crowd. 

[villakram]

50 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

The baseload power myth was debunked years ago but is still pushed by the fossil fuel crowd. 

If you say so. 

Ask the Germans how the increased volatility in power supply is working out (hint, French nuclear power, and Polish Coal.), or I believe there's a part of Australia with similar issues.

See Texas, where the Biden admin is sending them emergency diesel generators (not windmills or solar panels) or see this power supply graph.

Reality vs utopian thinking.

Of course, they could also have put heaters on the turbines, which reduce their efficiency and require grid power when the wind is not blowing. When it's stormy, solar ain't worth a damn or if you live in a northern climate with winter and long periods with low daily sunlight, ditto.

 

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, villakram said:

If you say so. 

Ask the Germans how the increased volatility in power supply is working out (hint, French nuclear power, and Polish Coal.), or I believe there's a part of Australia with similar issues.

See Texas, where the Biden admin is sending them emergency diesel generators (not windmills or solar panels) or see this power supply graph.

Reality vs utopian thinking.

Of course, they could also have put heaters on the turbines, which reduce their efficiency and require grid power when the wind is not blowing. When it's stormy, solar ain't worth a damn or if you live in a northern climate with winter and long periods with low daily sunlight, ditto.

 

South Australia is the part of Australia you are think of, and they had reliability issues back in 2016-2017 during their transition to renewables from coal power but now it’s running great. They have some of the cheapest power in the country and export excess renewable energy to other areas. The main issue they have is that they generate too much renewable electricity for the grid to handle. They are increasing battery storage capacity and building a connection to NSW to be able to shed more power but more and more keeps coming online as people keep adding more solar panels to their roofs. In the meantime they are telling people to run more heavy duty appliances during the middle of the day 

Quote

It's an exciting future for South Australia and we have a whole number of things that we are putting in place to manage that," he said.

That includes making it cheaper for people to use power during the day and encouraging people to switch on dishwashers, pool pumps and hot water systems in the middle of the day. 

The next step is convincing more people to connect batteries to store cheap energy during the day.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-25/all-sa-power-from-solar-for-first-time/12810366

Edited February 18, 2021 by LondonLax

[chrisp65]

Has Biden blamed the Texan snow on poor fridge maintenance yet?

Jeez, I miss that guy.

 

[andym]

1 hour ago, villakram said:

If you say so. 

Ask the Germans how the increased volatility in power supply is working out (hint, French nuclear power, and Polish Coal.), or I believe there's a part of Australia with similar issues.

See Texas, where the Biden admin is sending them emergency diesel generators (not windmills or solar panels) or see this power supply graph.

Reality vs utopian thinking.

Of course, they could also have put heaters on the turbines, which reduce their efficiency and require grid power when the wind is not blowing. When it's stormy, solar ain't worth a damn or if you live in a northern climate with winter and long periods with low daily sunlight, ditto.

 

I do find it interesting that you spend so much time in this thread dismissing anything said by democrat politicians as they have secretly sold themselves to the big corporate machine (and often telling other posters to educate themselves about these matters)

Yet here you are quoting tweets by a guy (whose background is philosophy and computer science) who runs a for-profit, pro fossil fuel think tank that shills for the Koch Brothers

[HanoiVillan]

Really doesn't seem like renewables are the main issue here:

Seems like the bigger issue is the state's decision to have a grid which is not interconnected with other states; combined with some bad luck and a once-in-a-generation storm.

[maqroll]

Imagine being ruled by these rodeo assh*les?

Quote

Texas power grid was ‘seconds or minutes’ from a total blackout that could have lasted months, ERCOT says

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/weather/2021/02/18/oncor-ends-controlled-outages-thousands-of-north-texans-still-without-power-due-to-equipment-damage/

[TheAuthority]

3 hours ago, andym said:

I do find it interesting that you spend so much time in this thread dismissing anything said by democrat politicians as they have secretly sold themselves to the big corporate machine (and often telling other posters to educate themselves about these matters)

Yet here you are quoting tweets by a guy (whose background is philosophy and computer science) who runs a for-profit, pro fossil fuel think tank that shills for the Koch Brothers

I clicked on the guy he linked. The 1st post was a retweet of someone saying: 

Quote

Biden admin is send emergency DIESEL-powered generators to Texas.

What... no emergency windmills or solar panels?

Fossil fuels rule.

and his pinned tweet was

Quote

the root cause of the TX blackouts is a national and state policy that has prioritized the adoption of unreliable wind/solar energy over reliable energy.

The fact that people buy this shit is amazing to me. I guess listening to Rush Limbaugh and being brainwashed by Fox & OAN et al. will do that to you.

[magnkarl]

10 hours ago, villakram said:

Solar and wind are all well and good, but a baseload is required and don't start spouting battery nonsense. Gas plants are how it should be now in any cost vs pollution calculation, but longer term some nuclear will need to be included.

Unless, of course the main goal here is just to generate new business ventures.

Also, notably zero discussion about how solar and wind facilities are generated, replaced and re-cycled, much akin to the way the implicit and legacy costs of fossil fuels are ignored.

I'm prepared to use my second guess - you are Tucker Carlson! Yesterday's big argument on Fox was this straw man theory that it's the green new deal that caused the blackout. Texas has very little renewable energy, yet Fox blames the 4 windmills in the state of gas and oil.

FACT CHECK: Fox News aired bizarre and wildly misleading claims about Texas' blackouts that pin blame on renewables and climate policies

Quote

While millions of Texans suffered from power outages amid extreme winter weather, a slew of Fox News hosts and guests misled their viewers by blaming the state's power grid collapse on renewable energy and progressive climate policies. 

Do you think your argument with a post from a pro-oil conglomerate corporate guy is a good one? I thought you were anti-conglomerate? Surely having your own solar disconnects you from the big business and oil. I can fill up my batteries at night when it's cheap and run my whole house on it, while others pay through their nose all winter to stay warm.

A staunch Kentucky republican friend of mine gave me a great tip the other day. Turn off your TV. Both sides of American media are unscrupulous one sided echo chambers. Fox is arguably the worst, it's all opinion and no news.

Time for whoever produces renewable energy in Texas to pile on in Dominion and Smartmatic's lawsuit against Fox. 

[sidcow]

This Amazing rock solid fuel of the future Diesel. I assume that's what's going to be powering this Perseverance Rover on Mars for the next 20 years yes? 

Hopefully NASA sent enough of these up with it. 

 

 

[magnkarl]

12 minutes ago, sidcow said:

This Amazing rock solid fuel of the future Diesel. I assume that's what's going to be powering this Perseverance Rover on Mars for the next 20 years yes? 

Hopefully NASA sent enough of these up with it. 

 

 

I'm sure the rover will have rolling blackouts due to the green new deal, and that whoever made it took away the jobs of all the oil workers meant to be powering it.