Big_John_10 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Do two individual games from two different seasons really prove much? It proves that under MON, they weren't as great as you were making out. That one game proves that? Regardless of dunne making team of the year and us conceding less goals than the vast majority of the league. Saying Collins and Dunne were/are better than Vlaar is bizarre to say the least.I think they were both comfortably better. Dunne especially so.Comfortably better, Dunne currently in the Championship, Collins a back-up at West Ham. Yep keep telling yourself they are comfortably better than him.I didn't say are I said were. Maybe we'll see better of vlaar under a better manager. After all dunne and Collins were poor once houllier came. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/8587517.stm Was Houllier manager for this game, thought not. You should check out how many we conceded in the other 37 games. Why should I check that, they were paid twice as much as Vlaar and by your accounts comfortably better players but still ended up conceded 7 in a game. Surely if they were that good, they wouldn't be conceding those levels surely. Don't know what money has to do with it. And I've answered the other point above. We had a superb defence that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Villa_Fan Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Do two individual games from two different seasons really prove much? It proves that under MON, they weren't as great as you were making out. lol check your facts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Dunne was better than Collins or Vlaar. he was brilliant in 09/10 and he made it into team of the year on merit. He is only playing championship now as he is 35 and his body is gone. like saying Vlaar is better than Sol Campbell because Campbell has no club 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Saying Collins and Dunne were/are better than Vlaar is bizarre to say the least. I think they were both comfortably better. Dunne especially so. Comfortably better, Dunne currently in the Championship, Collins a back-up at West Ham. Yep keep telling yourself they are comfortably better than him. I didn't say are I said were. Maybe we'll see better of vlaar under a better manager. After all dunne and Collins were poor once houllier came. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/8587517.stm Was Houllier manager for this game, thought not. In the context of that season that Chelsea game was clearly a freak result. Only a fool would suggest otherwise. In the 37 other league games that made up that season we conceded just 32 goals which is excellent by most peoples standards. Of course Dunne and Collins weren't solely responsible for that but they played a pretty big part in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) Dunne was better than Collins or Vlaar. he was brilliant in 09/10 and he made it into team of the year on merit. He is only playing championship now as he is 35 and his body is gone. like saying Vlaar is better than Sol Campbell because Campbell has no club Zat in defending an Irishman. Shocker. Do two individual games from two different seasons really prove much? Neither do total goals conceded with regards to individuals. Edited May 8, 2014 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Well when the individuals in question are the heart of our defence I'd say it was fair to say that the total goals conceded statistic is quite telling of their defensive ability. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Well when the individuals in question are the heart of our defence I'd say it was fair to say that the total goals conceded statistic is quite telling of their defensive ability. What about Guzan then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Well when the individuals in question are the heart of our defence I'd say it was fair to say that the total goals conceded statistic is quite telling of their defensive ability. Some of them sure, but not all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Guzan was our player of the year when we conceded 69 league goals. He just adds to the argument of how bad our current defence is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Guzan shows that you can still have good defensive players within an otherwise poor defensive team. It just goes to show that not everything is black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I think a keeper is different. You can clearly see if a keeper is at fault for a goal and in our case I don't think many can be laid on him. With a defender its not always about obvious individual mistakes and errors. Take the first bony goal against Swansea, not a massive error from an individual, just shit defending. It happens far too often and its why we've conceded a ridiculous amount of goals under Lambert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Saying Collins and Dunne were/are better than Vlaar is bizarre to say the least. I think they were both comfortably better. Dunne especially so. Comfortably better, Dunne currently in the Championship, Collins a back-up at West Ham. Yep keep telling yourself they are comfortably better than him. I didn't say are I said were. Maybe we'll see better of vlaar under a better manager. After all dunne and Collins were poor once houllier came. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/8587517.stm Was Houllier manager for this game, thought not. In the context of that season that Chelsea game was clearly a freak result. Only a fool would suggest otherwise. In the 37 other league games that made up that season we conceded just 32 goals which is excellent by most peoples standards. Of course Dunne and Collins weren't solely responsible for that but they played a pretty big part in it. A freak result we conceded 7 goals, with a defence that consisted of two very good defenders allegedly. We then conceded a further 6 at Newcastle with one of the mentioned defenders, see what I'm getting at Dunne and Collin had some decent form for about half a season but after that they weren't really that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunnski Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) Am surprised Vlaar is getting so much stick on here today, Imo if you guys wanna have a go at a player then it should be Delph as he has been cack this last month and offered feck all protection to Bertrand last night while playing some terrible passes and hitting some crap shots at goal, one of which lead to a City goal. Also watch him for the third goal last night, shocking. Vlaar is a class defender in a below standard team so he is gonna be made to look bad some times. The guy has saved us with his performances many times this season! Edited May 8, 2014 by Bunnski 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Do two individual games from two different seasons really prove much? It proves that under MON, they weren't as great as you were making out. That one game proves that? Regardless of dunne making team of the year and us conceding less goals than the vast majority of the league. Saying Collins and Dunne were/are better than Vlaar is bizarre to say the least. I think they were both comfortably better. Dunne especially so. Comfortably better, Dunne currently in the Championship, Collins a back-up at West Ham. Yep keep telling yourself they are comfortably better than him. I didn't say are I said were. Maybe we'll see better of vlaar under a better manager. After all dunne and Collins were poor once houllier came. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/8587517.stm Was Houllier manager for this game, thought not. You should check out how many we conceded in the other 37 games. Why should I check that, they were paid twice as much as Vlaar and by your accounts comfortably better players but still ended up conceded 7 in a game. Surely if they were that good, they wouldn't be conceding those levels surely. Don't know what money has to do with it. And I've answered the other point above. We had a superb defence that year. Money has a lot to do with it, if the manager was allowed to spend the wages that the two drunks were on then maybe we'd have another defender beside Vlaar for him to actually have a good partnership. If Collins or Dunne in their heyday had to partner Clark or Baker they'd know what Vlaar was going through. Actually Dunne partnered Clark against Newcastle away and what a surprise we conceded 6. Collins partnered Baker against Man United under McLeish guess what they banged in 4. Theres a pattern emerging here, hope your spotting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 A freak result we conceded 7 goals, with a defence that consisted of two very good defenders allegedly. Why does one result mean more than the other 37 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) A freak result we conceded 7 goals, with a defence that consisted of two very good defenders allegedly. Why does one result mean more than the other 37 games. So conceding 7 in a game is okay for a supposedly good defence, they were on the decline after the cup final and it was there for all to see. Edited May 8, 2014 by SikhInTrinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Am surprised Vlaar is getting so much stick on here today, Don't think he's getting much stick. He's just not highly rated by some. A freak result we conceded 7 goals, with a defence that consisted of two very good defenders allegedly. Why does one result mean more than the other 37 games. So conceding 7 in a game is okay for a supposedly good defence, they were on the decline after the cup final and it was there for all to see. OK, this is going way off topic about vlaar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay.P.A Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Vlaar is a very good defender. Get him a decent partner and we'll reap the rewards. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Vlaar, Dunne and Collins. Some people think Dunne is the best, some think Collins is the best, and some think Vlaar is the best. This is why you've got to love VT. Either way they're all better than Colin bloody Calderwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Vlaar for me is average for the league but stands out for us. Wouldn't come close to top defenders of the past but as a club we were blessed with a lot of top defenders.. More an indictment of how far we have fallen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts