All-Purpose Religion Thread

[Rodders]

1. What on earth do you mean by homosexuality bandwagon?  All people are asking for is basic respect and acceptance for other people. We all have our own idiosyncratic biochemistry. Live, let live and celebrate who you are. Religions that oppose this are demanding a conformity based on nothing more that bizarre prejudice, rooted in either fear, ignorance or prejudice, or some daft appeal to a book, as if some mumbo-jumbo gobbledygook from the past has any relevance to how anyone else ought to live their life.

There are periods when certain issues make the headlines, as chris said  that capture a zeitgest, there's popular support to tell the bigots of this world to **** off, right now whereas previously those who were different, be it in sexual orientation or another minority grouping would have had to suppress a significant part of who they were to avoid trouble. There should be absolutely no sympathy with the religious doctrines, dogmas and practices of bullshit that have made those who are different feel less than who they are and marginalised. The religious parents here are the losers. They lack imagination, empathy and respect. They are really quite shit humans.

equating cultural indoctrination of some arbitrary pseudophilosophy and the natural sexual spectrum of human lives isn't fair. If that's what you were doing, I find it hard to establish what you mean sometimes.

There are loads of problems with the world and we can talk and chew gum at the same time. We can address all of them, and yes some of them do deserve higher profiles. I find most people I know are depressed by the rising levels of homelessness in the world, as they are regarding scientific ignorance regarding climate change amongst too many moronic politicians and a plethora of other issues

But gay people are going to be most vocal about gay issues, as it has an obvious personal connection to them. We can't fight all the issues with the same level of intensity. Give a voice to the problems you face, sure, but don't denigrate other causes just because at this moment in time they happen to have a bigger megaphone.

 

Also it's alot easier admittedly to call for basic respect, call out BS, and say this is a no brainer, let's achieve some direct positive results in our social world, than it is to solve the causes of homelessness and poverty. We may all have our theories about economic systems, austerity etc, but fixing that it is tougher, and more abstract. I think people also find it easier to support causes where there's an improved chance of achieving something, not necessarily consciously so, but it's easier to feel helpless about homelessness, than it is about bigotry. The latter, you can fight back at directly, and actually influence positive change in discourse.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Rodders

[chrisp65]

11 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

I like the spirit of 'pushing on all fronts'. However I find it a bit hard to believe you don't prioritise your time and goals.

What's more important, the local basketball teams fundraiser, or 20% of the Middle East living on $2 or less a day?

What does the emergency department address first, A'Villan's broken finger or chrisp65 who's potentially about to lose his life?

In a survey done by the organisation I volunteer for, over 70% of Melbourne's homeless reported sexual abuse as a child.

So yes there is no doubt some issues around sexuality and identity prevalent among those members of the community.

Of course I prioritise my time and goals. As you should yours.

Then, presuming people have different interests, lots of bases get covered.

One thing I've done on and off for a good few years is contribute toothbrushes and toothpaste to some of the appeals that go out from local churches. You don't have to help a church help others, I just find it a convenient way of doing a tiny bit of good. they organise locally, they have a wish list they've received from a partner organisation and you contribute what you can from that list.

Personally, I've never contributed a bible or a skateboard. But I'd say over the years I've sent a few hundred toothbrush kits. i wouldn't bother or know how to send those independently, so I stick them in the container used by a church group. Doesn't mean I have a belief, also doesn't mean I trash their belief. If a different group from a different religion or strictly atheist was organising the container, they'd go in there.

I'm relaxed about the bible, it's more like the pirate code, it only applies if you are a pirate and even then it's more sort of guidelines.

I've been on a couple of Pride marches, they're good fun and it's a nice easy day out. but then I've also bought the big issue - realised for the first time on Saturday that they can now take cards!

Whatever floats your goat that doesn't harm others.

As someone recently said, I was taught geography in school. It didn't turn me in to an oxbow lake.

 

 

(maybe not intended to come over quite as sanctimonious hip dude, worthy and virtuous as it now reads, I'm quite the dick most days)

Edited March 27, 2019 by chrisp65

[bickster]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Caught an interview where Diane Abbott was sharing her views on the subject and she said it's all really quite dull and mild stuff really. She said the most interesting thing that happens is the kids get to put a condom on a banana.

I couldn't help thinking that probably doesn't happen in junior school and probably didn't help the argument.

The Labour Party really should buy some Gaffer Tape

[Designer1]

Terrific post @Rodders 

[A'Villan]

7 minutes ago, Rodders said:

1. What on earth do you mean by homosexuality bandwagon?  All people are asking for is basic respect and acceptance for other people. We all have our own idiosyncratic biochemistry. Live, let live and celebrate who you are. Religions that oppose this are demanding a conformity based on nothing more that bizarre prejudice, rooted in either fear, ignorance or prejudice, or some daft appeal to a book, as if some mumbo-jumbo gobbledygook from the past has any relevance to how anyone else ought to live their life.

There are periods when certain issues make the headlines, as chris said a zeitgest, there's popular support to tell the bigots of this world to **** off, whereas previously those who were different, be it in sexual orientation or a minority grouping would have had to suppress a significant part of who they were to avoid trouble. There should be absolutely no sympathy with the religious doctrines, dogmas and practices of bullshit that have made those who are different feel less than who they are and marginalised. The religious parents here are the losers. They lack imagination, empathy and respect. They are really quite shit humans.

equating cultural indoctrination of some arbitrary pseudophilosophy and the natural sexual spectrum of human lives isn't fair. If that's what you were doing, I find it hard to establish what you mean sometimes.

There are loads of problems with the world and we can talk and chew gum at the same time, we can address all of them, some of them do deserve higher profiles. I find most people I know are depressed by the rising levels of homelessness in the world, as they are be scientific ignorance regarding climate change amongst too many moronic politicians etc.

But gay people are going to be most vocal about gay issues, as it has an obvious personal connection to them. We can't fight all the issues with the same level of intensity. Give a voice to the problems you face, sure, but don't denigrate other causes just because at this moment in time they happen to have a bigger megaphone.

 

Also it's alot easier admittedly to call for basic respect, call out bullshit, and say this is a no brainer, let's achieve some direct positive results in our social world, than it is to solve the causes of homelessness and poverty. We may all have our theories about economic systems, austerity etc, but fixing that it is tougher, and more abstract. I think people also find it easier to support causes where there's an improved chance of achieving something, not necessarily consciously so, but it's easier to feel helpless about homelessness, than it is about bigotry. The latter, you can fight back at directly, and actually influence positive change in discourse.

This speaks to me. And probably deserves a better reply than what's to come, it's bedtime for me though.

What I mean by bandwagon is in line with the dictionary definition.

If you find it hard to establish what I mean sometimes on account of me being inarticulate or poorly written, I apologise.

If I am exercising your brain then I am just paying it forward. I hope it's a bit of both at least, but wouldn't be surprised if it's the former.

Being positive is like going up a mountain, you scale your way to the top with utmost care. Being negative is like sliding down a hill, and requires little effort.

 

[A'Villan]

39 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Of course I prioritise my time and goals. As you should yours.

Then, presuming people have different interests, lots of bases get covered.

One thing I've done on and off for a good few years is contribute toothbrushes and toothpaste to some of the appeals that go out from local churches. You don't have to help a church help others, I just find it a convenient way of doing a tiny bit of good. they organise locally, they have a wish list they've received from a partner organisation and you contribute what you can from that list.

Personally, I've never contributed a bible or a skateboard. But I'd say over the years I've sent a few hundred toothbrush kits. i wouldn't bother or know how to send those independently, so I stick them in the container used by a church group. Doesn't mean I have a belief, also doesn't mean I trash their belief. If a different group from a different religion or strictly atheist was organising the container, they'd go in there.

I'm relaxed about the bible, it's more like the pirate code, it only applies if you are a pirate and even then it's more sort of guidelines.

I've been on a couple of Pride marches, they're good fun and it's a nice easy day out. but then I've also bought the big issue - realised for the first time on Saturday that they can now take cards!

Whatever floats your goat that doesn't harm others.

As someone recently said, I was taught geography in school. It didn't turn me in to an oxbow lake.

 

 

(maybe not intended to come over quite as sanctimonious hip dude, worthy and virtuous as it now reads, I'm quite the dick most days)

Another good post. You don't come across as sanctimonious, more down to earth.

If you're a dick most days I hope it's a fun-loving one and not the type that pees in an apple juice bottle and leaves it in the fridge.

 

[chrisp65]

I'd never even considered doing that, but now the thought's in my head....

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

1. Even if it is a choice, go ahead. Everybody is getting around the homosexuality bandwagon. Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal. Does Muhammad (not the prophet, the kid in Gaza) choose his Muslim heritage? Could you say that in teaching same sex marriage you are brainwashing children? It certainly wouldn't be a popular statement.
2. I could post an article if you are interested in this. The word 'homosexuality' didn't show up in translations of the bible until 1946 apparently. Further to this, there is over 2000+ bible verses on poverty. On the rich and poor. And yet, all anyone wants to talk about these days are six Bible verses that “condemn homosexuality.”

1. The Muslim kid (in certain countries, at any rate) is not being taught about options. He is being TOLD that Muhammed (pbuh) IS the prophet of Allah. He is not being told that it is perfectly OK to choose another religion, or to be an atheist. He is being taught to be a Muslim. Whereas no kid is being "taught to be a homosexual", merely that some people are, that it is perfectly OK, and that it is NOT OK to discriminate against them. Totally different scenarios.

2. I don't really give a shit what the Bible does or does not have to say about it. 

[mjmooney]

Quote

After two trials described by Amnesty International as “grossly unfair,” Iranian human rights lawyer Nasrin Sotoudeh has been sentenced to a total of 38 years in prison and 148 lashes.

Sotoudeh, who has dedicated her life to defending Iranian womenprosecuted for removing their hijabs in public, has been in the crosshairs of Iran’s theocratic government for years. In 2010, she was convicted of conspiring to harm state security and served half of a six-year sentence. Then, in June of last year, she was rearrested on an array of dubious charges. Tried in secret, details of her ordeal have often come via her husband, Reza Khandan, who wrote of her new, much harsher sentence on his Facebook page on Monday.

Sotoudeh was ultimately charged with seven crimes and given the maximum sentence for all of them. Five additional years were added from a 2016 case in which she was convicted in absentia. The total 38-year sentence was severe even by Iranian standards — a country often accused of human rights abuses, particularly involving women. Observers say it may signal a newly hardline approach to political dissent. Last week, a radical cleric linked to mass executions in the 1980s was appointed head of the Islamic Republic’s judiciary.

Critics from around the world decried the outcome of Sotoudeh’s case. Amnesty International said it was harshest sentence documented against a human rights defender in Iran in recent memory. Hadi Ghaemi, the executive director of the New York-based Center for Human Rights in Iran, told CBS News it exposed “the insecurity the regime has to any peaceful challenge.”

The same day Sotoudeh was sentenced, the UN investigator on human rights in Iran held up her case as a sign of the country’s increasingly brutal oppression of those who defend the rights of women. “Worrying patterns of intimidation, arrest, prosecution, and ill-treatment of human rights defenders, lawyers, and labor rights activists signal an increasingly severe state response,” he said.

Link

Edited March 27, 2019 by mjmooney

[A'Villan]

3 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

1. The Muslim kid (in certain countries, at any rate) is not being taught about options. He is being TOLD that Muhammed (pbuh) IS the prophet of Allah. He is not being told that it is perfectly OK to choose another religion, or to be an atheist. He is being taught to be a Muslim. Whereas no kid is being "taught to be a homosexual", merely that some people are, that it is perfectly OK, and that it is NOT OK to discriminate against them. Totally different scenarios.

2. I don't really give a shit what the Bible does or does not have to say about it. 

1. I take little issue with Muslims or their belief. We all inherit beliefs and culture. We are TOLD that we live in a free-thinking, speaking and democratic state, many see it that way.
2. That's entirely your prerogative. This is the 'All Purpose Religion Thread'. So you'll understand my interest, I hope.

 

[VILLAMARV]

3 hours ago, A'Villan said:

Do we need a feminist class for young girls under the age of 12?

I just don't understand the hype around homosexuality and also the disdain for religion.

Confused by this. What is a feminist class? Why would we put barriers based on sex or random age limits on educating children about equality?

Again, (as others have asked) what do you mean by hype?

As for the disdain for religion. There is much of it in this thread, we seem to have many non religious types here, but where is the disdain for religion in the story about families deciding to boycott and picket their kids school?

2 hours ago, A'Villan said:

1. Even if it is a choice, go ahead. Everybody is getting around the homosexuality bandwagon. Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.
2. I could post an article if you are interested in this. The word 'homosexuality' didn't show up in translations of the bible until 1946 apparently. Further to this, there is over 2000+ bible verses on poverty. On the rich and poor. And yet, all anyone wants to talk about these days are six Bible verses that “condemn homosexuality.”

What Universal truth?

Quote

Does Muhammad (not the prophet, the kid in Gaza) choose his Muslim heritage?

Don't know any Mohammeds from Gaza so I don't know. The 2 I've met who were from Nigeria and Coventry respectfully though did not have any choice whatsoever in the matter. In fact they both lived in fear of their parents. We were young lads, hanging out, doing the stupid things young people do in their late teens/early 20's. They drank, they had casual sex - so they broke the rules. They both still prayed everyday and we had many fascinating conversations about belief structures. But the one thing they didn't want, was their parents finding out they were "not good Muslim boys" (their phrase not mine), following all the rules. And that fear was built on a threat of violence. Now in no way does my anecdotal experience equate to a study on their religion or mean that this is what all Muslim life in Britain is like. Perhaps they both hailed from particularly violent backgrounds. But, like mooney said, and as is true of ANY religious family from any religion who force their beliefs on their offspring, if one is taught to BE a thing without exploring all/some of the options or other possibilities it is indoctrination by any definition.

Quote

Could you say that in teaching same sex marriage you are brainwashing children?

No. Because teaching people something is entirely different to teaching people about something. No one is "teaching same sex marriage".

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

What I mean by bandwagon is in line with the dictionary definition.

Do you think Homosexuality is something that is currently fashionable or popular and attracting increasing support? Is that what you mean?

19 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

1. I take little issue with Muslims or their belief. We all inherit beliefs and culture. We are TOLD that we live in a free-thinking, speaking and democratic state, many see it that way.

This one is not really a Muslim issue to me. It could be the Catholics or the Jehovah's Witnesses and maybe 20/30 years ago it would have been as well. That we all inherit beliefs and culture from our surroundings is not in question. But over here, as a society, we are moving slowly in a direction that I feel the vast majority of people support. Moving away from alienation into an age of acceptance. A little over 50 years ago in the UK it was still ILLEGAL to have sex with a man if you were a man. (Funnily enough Lesbianism was not persecuted to the same degree) The history of those Laws, dating back to The Buggery Act of 1533, is heavily rooted in the Church's influence. "An unnatural sexual act against the will of God and man" equated to bestiality and punishable by death up until 1861. Oscar Wilde a famously persecuted historical figure, but look at the treatment of Alan Turing in the 50's. Jesus. Then in the 60's politicians went against the swell of public opinion. In fact a Welsh guy by the name of Abse got a bill through parliament that de-criminalised male-male sexual relationships. But with various criteria. In fact, while we may pride ourselves in our progressive attitude it was a ruling by a European Human Rights commission from the 90's I think that ultimately forced the UK's hand in stopping any discrimination based in Law regarding the sex of participants in a sexual act. And it was only 10 years ago that N.Ireland fell into line. 10 years in the UK where gay people have enjoyed the same legal rights as heterosexuals. 10 years.

And so the idea of religions and homosexuality having a strained relationship lets say is not a new one. What people over here are getting annoyed about is that the guys following the Laws we have around education are not acting in a discriminatory way, they are in fact doing the opposite of that. The people waving the placards in this instance are very much acting in a discriminatory way - and worse still, doing so based on a doctrine that has been around in this country for well over 400 years or more that has fundamentally stopped people being treated equally.

It is 100% NOT people having issues with "Muslims and their beliefs"

 

[mjmooney]

Quote

Do we need a feminist class for young girls under the age of 12?

Yes. Yes, we do. Although not just 'for girls', but for boys equally. There was a really good TV program on here a year or two ago called something like "No more boys and girls". It showed how ideas of gender inequality were ingrained in children from a very young age. If we are to acheive a fair and equal society (and I believe we must) then it's never too early to start. Obviously the language needs to be pitched at a level appropriate level for age (no-one's asking five year olds to read Germaine Greer), but it's a subject that is just as important as English, maths and science. Arguably more so. 

[blandy]

5 hours ago, A'Villan said:

If you're a dick most days I hope it's a fun-loving one and not the type that pees in an apple juice bottle and leaves it in the fridge.

Not all in cider advice is to be followed.

[A'Villan]

I've opened up a can of whoop-ass, haven't I?! Perhaps rightly so..

I appreciate the replies and the discussion. I enjoy reading your perspectives. Everyone who's responded showing patience with me.

I'll get back to the last few soon. I'd like to offer a response worth reading and don't want to be misrepresented by a rushed post.

 

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

Shouldn’t the schools take note of the concerns of majority of the parents? If they don’t want something taught in the school they send their children to then they are well within their right to voice their concerns about it. Maybe they should have a vote on the issue.

If the school doesn’t change their stance or they lose the vote and they feel that passionate about it the should move their kid to another school. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Vive_La_Villa

[VILLAMARV]

2 hours ago, mjmooney said:

Yes. Yes, we do. Although not just 'for girls', but for boys equally. There was a really good TV program on here a year or two ago called something like "No more boys and girls". It showed how ideas of gender inequality were ingrained in children from a very young age. If we are to acheive a fair and equal society (and I believe we must) then it's never too early to start. Obviously the language needs to be pitched at a level appropriate level for age (no-one's asking five year olds to read Germaine Greer), but it's a subject that is just as important as English, maths and science. Arguably more so. 

 

[mjmooney]

Thanks Marv. Well worth watching for those who haven't seen it. 

[Rugeley Villa]

Ive just asked my son if he believed in God, and I already knew the answer which was yes. I asked him why he believes in God, and he said because God made the world. My next question was well how do you know God made the world. His reply was well who else would have made it. I asked him if he thought God was human, and he said no, but he lives all around us. 

He said he enjoys praying, and keeps saying he wants to go to church. My daughter has started coming back from school singing religious hymns, so she’s starting to learn about God and Jesus. 

[Chindie]

Get 'em while their heads are soft.

[Vive_La_Villa]

23 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Ive just asked my son if he believed in God, and I already knew the answer which was yes. I asked him why he believes in God, and he said because God made the world. My next question was well how do you know God made the world. His reply was well who else would have made it. I asked him if he thought God was human, and he said no, but he lives all around us. 

He said he enjoys praying, and keeps saying he wants to go to church. My daughter has started coming back from school singing religious hymns, so she’s starting to learn about God and Jesus. 

I think all this is good. It’s good to have faith and a belief. While I’m not remotely religious myself I kind of envy those that are.