General Chat

[TheAuthority]

@mjmooney & @lapal_fan You are both absolutely right with what you say. Maybe I can throw a tiny bit more nuance on things that I've learnt from my time "under the baton."

As I tell my students, the first rule of being a professional musician is Never look at the conductor  

Although thats a joke, there is an element of truth to it. In terms of keeping time, or as I prefer to think of it, maintaining the pulse of the music, indulge me: When a solo instrumentalist performs they are solely dependent on their internal pulse. The audience has their own pulse too and it is up to the artist to make sure that they communicate a strong pulse to the listener. There is nothing more awful than listening to a soloist who has a poor sense of pulse. The listener must be lulled and wooed by the pulse that the soloist is communicating.

A smaller ensemble, say a string quartet, relies on a "group pulse" which is generated by listening intently to ones colleagues and being aware of when you should be directing the time (i.e. a set of running semi-quavers would mean that the rest of the group should usually be listening to you at that point.) There is also something of a "sixth sense" that develops in this kind of ensemble playing. The pulse and time is very democratic and the ensemble will fail if one person takes it upon themselves to dictate the tempo constantly to the rest of the group.

The largest non-conducted chamber ensemble I've come across (apart from jazz ensemble with rhythm section) would be 8 players. Beyond that you are looking at having a conductor. There are several notable "conductor-less" string ensembles of around 17 string players. These entail are large amount of leading (almost like conducting) from the concert master (lead violin.) My wife incidentally co-founded a very successful conductor-less string ensemble in Boston around 14 years ago - A Far Cry. 
But beyond 8 chamber players, or a heavily led string ensemble, this is when conductors ruffle their hair and ascend the podium.

So what does a conductor do? I would say the main bulk of their work happens during rehearsal. Sure they decide general tempi in the show, but depending on their level of competence, in rehearsals they will talk about balance issues, phrasing, bowings (how the strings use their bows) bow speed, quality of sound and articulation plus a million other minutiae that make up a symphony. That then becomes their "interpretation" of the composers intentions and it is becoming, sadly, something of a dying art-form. 

Here is John Barbirolli working with the Halle Orchestra on a Bruckner Symphony in rehearsal form the early 60's. He knew what he wanted even if his stick technique definitely falls into the "Never look at the conductor" realm.

I was fortunate enough to know his old 1st Trumpet player in the Halle when I was a kid and he did a great impression of Barbirolli. Sir John also kept a bottle of whiskey at the side of the stage and would always take a swig before he walked out. Thing was, so would half of the orchestra. When he realized, he used to mark the bottle with a marker pen 

Alas these days, conductors don't spend much of time with their orchestras. Through the 50's & 60's conductors would spend the majority of the season in their home town, cultivating a sound and a style that was unique. You had Barbirolli in Manchester, George Szell in Cleveland, Ormandy in Philadelphia, Reiner in Chicago and of course Bernstein in New York.

With the advent of easier jet travel through the 80's conductors started to realize that they could have not just 1, but 2 or 3 orchestras (and pay-checks) so the connection started to get lost - as did the quality. Conductors spent less and less time with their "home-town bands" and most Directors now only spend 10-14 weeks per year with their ensembles. In fact I believe when Sir Simon Rattle left the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, he was the longest serving Music Director of any European orchestra. And probably the last one that really forged a unique sound and identity. We were lucky to have him!

Back to what they actually do - conductors of course set the tempo at the beginning of a piece in performances and also set the interest level of the musicians on stage! If he/she has brought something to the table during the week of rehearsals you'll see an excited group ready to perform. If someone showed up who was a jerk, or out of their depth/wet behind the ears, the group will be phoning it in.

Orchestras need conductors for what we call the "corners" of music. When you get to a large rallentando, or a large climax, that is when they need to have good stick technique and clearly show that section of the music. That is what they are there for in performance - the rest is directing traffic and the really pretentious ones move around a lot and flick their hair etc.

One of the best I was privileged to work under was the late great Sir. Colin Davies. Going back to the original post, I also played under John Williams at Tanglewood with the Boston Pops a few years ago. -That was cool as ****. Just to back up some of the stuff I've been saying, we didn't even rehearse the Star Wars suite! - we'd all played many times before and he'd conducted it a million times. He is probably sick of it the truth be told even though it's made him a multi millionaire!

I'm glad you like the show @lapal_fan Check out some Prokofiev or Shostakovich (e.g 5th Symphony) -  John Williams ripped off both of those guys!  Also he stole a lot of Mahler - thats was the composer that showed me how powerful, profound and moving orchestral music could be. If I hadn't heard the opening to Mahler 5 when I was 13 my life would be very different. Just check out the 1st couple of minutes of this.
 

This is my area and my life so I apologize for the thesis. But you asked  - That'll learn ya!

Edited December 31, 2021 by TheAuthority

[Phil Silvers]

44 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

@mjmooney & @lapal_fan You are both absolutely right with what you say. Maybe I can throw a tiny bit more nuance on things that I've learnt from my time "under the baton."

As I tell my students, the first rule of being a professional musician is Never look at the conductor  

Although thats a joke, there is an element of truth to it. In terms of keeping time, or as I prefer to think of it, maintaining the pulse of the music, indulge me: When a solo instrumentalist performs they are solely dependent on their internal pulse. The audience has their own pulse too and it is up to the artist to make sure that they communicate a strong pulse to the listener. There is nothing more awful than listening to a soloist who has a poor sense of pulse. The listener must be lulled and wooed by the pulse that the soloist is communicating.

A smaller ensemble, say a string quartet, relies on a "group pulse" which is generated by listening intently to ones colleagues and being aware of when you should be directing the time (i.e. a set of running semi-quavers would mean that the rest of the group should usually be listening to you at that point.) There is also something of a "sixth sense" that develops in this kind of ensemble playing. The pulse and time is very democratic and the ensemble will fail if one person takes it upon themselves to dictate the tempo constantly to the rest of the group.

The largest non-conducted chamber ensemble I've come across (apart from jazz ensemble with rhythm section) would be 8 players. Beyond that you are looking at having a conductor. There are several notable "conductor-less" string ensembles of around 17 string players. These entail are large amount of leading (almost like conducting) from the concert master (lead violin.) My wife incidentally co-founded a very successful conductor-less string ensemble in Boston around 14 years ago - A Far Cry. 
But beyond 8 chamber players, or a heavily led string ensemble, this is when conductors ruffle their hair and ascend the podium.

So what does a conductor do? I would say the main bulk of their work happens during rehearsal. Sure they decide general tempi in the show, but depending on their level of competence, in rehearsals they will talk about balance issues, phrasing, bowings (how the strings use their bows) bow speed, quality of sound and articulation plus a million other minutiae that make up a symphony. That then becomes their "interpretation" of the composers intentions and it is becoming, sadly, something of a dying art-form. 

Here is John Barbirolli working with the Halle Orchestra on a Bruckner Symphony in rehearsal form the early 60's. He knew what he wanted even if his stick technique definitely falls into the "Never look at the conductor" realm.

I was fortunate enough to know his old 1st Trumpet player in the Halle when I was a kid and he did a great impression of Barbirolli. Sir John also kept a bottle of whiskey at the side of the stage and would always take a swig before he walked out. Thing was, so would half of the orchestra. When he realized, he used to mark the bottle with a marker pen 

Alas these days, conductors don't spend much of time with their orchestras. Through the 50's & 60's conductors would spend the majority of the season in their home town, cultivating a sound and a style that was unique. You had Barbirolli in Manchester, George Szell in Cleveland, Ormandy in Philadelphia, Reiner in Chicago and of course Bernstein in New York.

With the advent of easier jet travel through the 80's conductors started to realize that they could have not just 1, but 2 or 3 orchestras (and pay-checks) so the connection started to get lost - as did the quality. Conductors spent less and less time with their "home-town bands" and most Directors now only spend 10-14 weeks per year with their ensembles. In fact I believe when Sir Simon Rattle left the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, he was the longest serving Music Director of any European orchestra. And probably the last one that really forged a unique sound and identity. We were lucky to have him!

Back to what they actually do - conductors of course set the tempo at the beginning of a piece in performances and also set the interest level of the musicians on stage! If he/she has brought something to the table during the week of rehearsals you'll see an excited group ready to perform. If someone showed up who was a jerk, or out of their depth/wet behind the ears, the group will be phoning it in.

Orchestras need conductors for what we call the "corners" of music. When you get to a large rallentando, or a large climax, that is when they need to have good stick technique and clearly show that section of the music. That is what they are there for in performance - the rest is directing traffic and the really pretentious ones move around a lot and flick their hair etc.

One of the best I was privileged to work under was the late great Sir. Colin Davies. Going back to the original post, I also played under John Williams at Tanglewood with the Boston Pops a few years ago. -That was cool as ****. Just to back up some of the stuff I've been saying, we didn't even rehearse the Star Wars suite! - we'd all played many times before and he'd conducted it a million times. He is probably sick of it the truth be told even though it's made him a multi millionaire!

I'm glad you like the show @lapal_fan Check out some Prokofiev or Shostakovich (e.g 5th Symphony) -  John Williams ripped off both of those guys!  Also he stole a lot of Mahler - thats was the composer that showed me how powerful, profound and moving orchestral music could be. If I hadn't heard the opening to Mahler 5 when I was 13 my life would be very different. Just check out the 1st couple of minutes of this.
 

This is my area and my life so I apologize for the thesis. But you asked  - That'll learn ya!

I read the bit at the bottom as edited 29 times by TheAuthority. doh. How would you describe Antonio Pappano's style and why are some so very animated, were they inspired by Bugs Bunny?

edit, thanks for the post, a very interesting read.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Phil Silvers

[TheAuthority]

8 minutes ago, Phil Silvers said:

I read the bit at the bottom as edited 29 times by TheAuthority. doh. How would you describe Antonio Pappano's style and why are some so very animated, were they inspired by Bugs Bunny?

edit, thanks for the post, a very interesting read.

So I haven't played with him so I just don't know. Let me ask my old friend Maxine who's in the LSO - we met when we were 11 and she's the LSO's poster child.

Re: - the edits - I type like a 3 fingered squid with dyslexia so p*** off.

[il_serpente]

On 29/12/2021 at 18:24, TheAuthority said:

Well I really appreciate the sentiment but 2022 is already going to get off to a bollock for me

Myself and my top graduate ensemble were invited to go to perform at a big conference the weekend of January 14th - 16th. It's been booked for months. The Chancellor of the University has just announced that they will be no in person classes for the 1st 2 weeks of January. Zero. Zilch. All students must return to Colorado but stay off campus and just get tested.

So as well as Zoom lessons (which are shitty anyway) my grad group can't rehearse at all. My Department chair has already emailed me to say that they can't circumvent the process by rehearsing off campus and I should carefully consider if should be flying out of state to perform due to the contagiousness of omicron.

This pandemic s**t is really starting to wear on me. I got my grad group to meet up on a zoom chat in 10 minutes - I can't believe they are having to go through this s**t at their age. 

Which university do you teach at?  University of Denver, by any chance?   My son is considering attending there starting in the fall.

[El Zen]

4 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

When you get to (…) a large climax, that is when they need to have good stick technique.

(With apologies for debasing a genuinely interesting post.) 

[TheAuthority]

8 hours ago, il_serpente said:

Which university do you teach at?  University of Denver, by any chance?   My son is considering attending there starting in the fall.

Yup - let me know if you visit town to see it

[lapal_fan]

14 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

@mjmooney & @lapal_fan You are both absolutely right with what you say. Maybe I can throw a tiny bit more nuance on things that I've learnt from my time "under the baton."

As I tell my students, the first rule of being a professional musician is Never look at the conductor  

Although thats a joke, there is an element of truth to it. In terms of keeping time, or as I prefer to think of it, maintaining the pulse of the music, indulge me: When a solo instrumentalist performs they are solely dependent on their internal pulse. The audience has their own pulse too and it is up to the artist to make sure that they communicate a strong pulse to the listener. There is nothing more awful than listening to a soloist who has a poor sense of pulse. The listener must be lulled and wooed by the pulse that the soloist is communicating.

A smaller ensemble, say a string quartet, relies on a "group pulse" which is generated by listening intently to ones colleagues and being aware of when you should be directing the time (i.e. a set of running semi-quavers would mean that the rest of the group should usually be listening to you at that point.) There is also something of a "sixth sense" that develops in this kind of ensemble playing. The pulse and time is very democratic and the ensemble will fail if one person takes it upon themselves to dictate the tempo constantly to the rest of the group.

The largest non-conducted chamber ensemble I've come across (apart from jazz ensemble with rhythm section) would be 8 players. Beyond that you are looking at having a conductor. There are several notable "conductor-less" string ensembles of around 17 string players. These entail are large amount of leading (almost like conducting) from the concert master (lead violin.) My wife incidentally co-founded a very successful conductor-less string ensemble in Boston around 14 years ago - A Far Cry. 
But beyond 8 chamber players, or a heavily led string ensemble, this is when conductors ruffle their hair and ascend the podium.

So what does a conductor do? I would say the main bulk of their work happens during rehearsal. Sure they decide general tempi in the show, but depending on their level of competence, in rehearsals they will talk about balance issues, phrasing, bowings (how the strings use their bows) bow speed, quality of sound and articulation plus a million other minutiae that make up a symphony. That then becomes their "interpretation" of the composers intentions and it is becoming, sadly, something of a dying art-form. 

Here is John Barbirolli working with the Halle Orchestra on a Bruckner Symphony in rehearsal form the early 60's. He knew what he wanted even if his stick technique definitely falls into the "Never look at the conductor" realm.

I was fortunate enough to know his old 1st Trumpet player in the Halle when I was a kid and he did a great impression of Barbirolli. Sir John also kept a bottle of whiskey at the side of the stage and would always take a swig before he walked out. Thing was, so would half of the orchestra. When he realized, he used to mark the bottle with a marker pen 

Alas these days, conductors don't spend much of time with their orchestras. Through the 50's & 60's conductors would spend the majority of the season in their home town, cultivating a sound and a style that was unique. You had Barbirolli in Manchester, George Szell in Cleveland, Ormandy in Philadelphia, Reiner in Chicago and of course Bernstein in New York.

With the advent of easier jet travel through the 80's conductors started to realize that they could have not just 1, but 2 or 3 orchestras (and pay-checks) so the connection started to get lost - as did the quality. Conductors spent less and less time with their "home-town bands" and most Directors now only spend 10-14 weeks per year with their ensembles. In fact I believe when Sir Simon Rattle left the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, he was the longest serving Music Director of any European orchestra. And probably the last one that really forged a unique sound and identity. We were lucky to have him!

Back to what they actually do - conductors of course set the tempo at the beginning of a piece in performances and also set the interest level of the musicians on stage! If he/she has brought something to the table during the week of rehearsals you'll see an excited group ready to perform. If someone showed up who was a jerk, or out of their depth/wet behind the ears, the group will be phoning it in.

Orchestras need conductors for what we call the "corners" of music. When you get to a large rallentando, or a large climax, that is when they need to have good stick technique and clearly show that section of the music. That is what they are there for in performance - the rest is directing traffic and the really pretentious ones move around a lot and flick their hair etc.

One of the best I was privileged to work under was the late great Sir. Colin Davies. Going back to the original post, I also played under John Williams at Tanglewood with the Boston Pops a few years ago. -That was cool as ****. Just to back up some of the stuff I've been saying, we didn't even rehearse the Star Wars suite! - we'd all played many times before and he'd conducted it a million times. He is probably sick of it the truth be told even though it's made him a multi millionaire!

I'm glad you like the show @lapal_fan Check out some Prokofiev or Shostakovich (e.g 5th Symphony) -  John Williams ripped off both of those guys!  Also he stole a lot of Mahler - thats was the composer that showed me how powerful, profound and moving orchestral music could be. If I hadn't heard the opening to Mahler 5 when I was 13 my life would be very different. Just check out the 1st couple of minutes of this.
 

This is my area and my life so I apologize for the thesis. But you asked  - That'll learn ya!

Brilliant answer, thanks so much

can't believe you've played under John Williams! (KW there)

what's your thoughts on him? Is he a modern day Beethoven? Or just someone who is half decent?

What's he like?  Did you have much interaction?

The conductor of the show(?) I went to, said after the orchestra played Schindler's List music that Spielberg showed him a private screening.  After the movie finished, tears were streaming down his face and Spielberg asked him if he'd be the composer for the film, to which he replied "I can't, I'm not good enough.." to which Spielberg replied, "that may be the case, but all the ones who ARE good enough, are dead".

 

[Xann]

This is a pic from Google Maps. This mother and son lived on that bench for six years, by choice it must be said.

She died on New Year's Eve.

Quote

 

Is it OK if someone wants to live for years on a bench?

 

 

Hadn't realised the BBC had picked up on their story previously.

[TheAuthority]

On 31/12/2021 at 12:08, lapal_fan said:

Brilliant answer, thanks so much

can't believe you've played under John Williams! (KW there)

what's your thoughts on him? Is he a modern day Beethoven? Or just someone who is half decent?

What's he like?  Did you have much interaction?

The conductor of the show(?) I went to, said after the orchestra played Schindler's List music that Spielberg showed him a private screening.  After the movie finished, tears were streaming down his face and Spielberg asked him if he'd be the composer for the film, to which he replied "I can't, I'm not good enough.." to which Spielberg replied, "that may be the case, but all the ones who ARE good enough, are dead".

 

 

 

JW is pretty cool - very professional and very warm. I mean, he's pretty well looked after and everyone is always nice to him - hard for him to be a jerk!

I didn't know that story about Schindler's list. This is a bit dark, but it reminds that a lot of Jewish composers were killed in the camps. There is a big push amongst Jewish (and non-Jewish) musicians, to have their music played and remembered.

Is he a modern day Beethoven? That's a very tough question because writing music for film requires a very different skill set to writing "Western Art Music." They are also composing for different reasons. Beethoven was exploring his philosophy of the human condition (see Schiller's text from the ninth symphony) and well, JW is writing to enhance moving pictures. I'm not belittling anything JW does, because I think it's fantastic - but he is considering timing and hitting action points, whereas Beethoven is thinking about expanding harmonic musical language in order express a comment on life.

JW is more like Wagner. Wagner had the idea of "total work of art" which in his day was opera. He wrote the libretto, the music, controlled the look of the sets and the dramatic performances of the singers. Perhaps he would have worked in film had he been around with that technology. Of course he also came up with the idea of "leitmotifs." Essentially everyone has their own theme tune. Well JW absolutely killed that in Star Wars. The Empire has a leitmotif, Luke has a leitmotif, Luke & Leia even have their own leitmotif and one of my favorites is Yoda's. What is very cool about JW though is he also wrote the soundtrack to "Catch me if you Can." It couldn't be any more different to Jaws/Star Wars or even Close Encounters which IMO is one of his best.

Hope that makes sense!

[GarethRDR]

Any/all leitmotif talk should naturally lead to this:

 

[Rds1983]

In case anyone nearby wants to help a terminally ill Villa fan in Kingstanding who is looking for some help in walking his two dogs. 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Rds1983

[robby b]

On 03/01/2022 at 12:52, Xann said:

This is a pic from Google Maps. This mother and son lived on that bench for six years, by choice it must be said.

She died on New Year's Eve.

 

Hadn't realised the BBC had picked up on their story previously.

I saw them numerous times when I was working in Tooting from 2016 to 2017 as it's right in the centre of Tooting, very near the tube station. I walked past them on their pavement and they were sometimes just completely hidden under their blankets in the daytime. It's such a busy street, so much traffic and noise, and the pavement gets very crowded,  so many people walking along.

And then I was very surprised to find that BBC article about them when it came out, on their homepage. Sad story.

Edited January 5, 2022 by robby b

[Xann]

21 minutes ago, robby b said:

And then I was very surprised to find that BBC article about them when it came out, on their homepage. Sad story.

The son was on his bench today with quite a pile of new supplies. Guessing they're from local folk and businesses?

We'll have to see what happens next? He'll be missing her company in the day, and the body heat at night.

[robby b]

Just now, Xann said:

The son was on his bench today with quite a pile of new supplies. Guessing they're from local folk and businesses?

We'll have to see what happens next? He'll be missing her company in the day, and the body heat at night.

Flippin heck he's still there, after six years! My word, it's such an inhospitable place to live! It's crazy. For a start he's got the four lanes of traffic right next next him the whole of the time, with lots of London buses, some of them still diesel, all that particle pollution going into his lungs. : <

[Xann]

Don't know whether your body would adjust to sitting upright on a bench for years in all weathers?

[Xann]

Modified a drill bit with Milliput to take the nasal/ear hair adaptor from the broken clippers 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Xann

[NurembergVillan]

2 hours ago, Xann said:

Modified a drill bit with Milliput to take the nasal/ear hair adaptor from the broken clippers 

You're Darius Vassell and I claim my five pounds.

[TheAuthority]

5 hours ago, Xann said:

Modified a drill bit with Milliput to take the nasal/ear hair adaptor from the broken clippers 

Bloody hell how hairy are your ears and nostrils ?

[Xann]

6 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Bloody hell how hairy are your ears and nostrils ?

Thinning on top, sprouting elsewhere.

It will get a bit foresty given time.

Age innit.

Next gravity gets at the cartilage 

The roaring success of this project means a search for an attachment to remove hard skin from the soles of my feet is on

 

[TheAuthority]

4 hours ago, Xann said:

The roaring success of this project means a search for an attachment to remove hard skin from the soles of my feet is on