Ratings & Reactions: Liverpool v Villa

[Keener window-cleaner]

20 hours ago, GeordieVillan said:

I have my concerns about the high line, and as has been discussed to death - sometimes we will get caught out. However, what I don’t understand is how we can play the high line, and not press at the same time. That is suicide. The Liverpool fans around me all commented that they didn’t realise Villa played such a high line, “they play as high as us” etc. But they also very quickly observed the difference was that when we were high in the first half, sometimes as high as the half way line, we weren’t applying any pressure on the ball. We got caught out with a simple ball over the top and quick one-two every time Liverpool went forward.

This is really interesting. I hadn't thought of that before, a friend who is a Liverpool supporter texted me after the game and said the same thing. He also said that Liverpool did the same at the beginning of last season and that it was a catastrophe for them, he was very surprised that we played with such a high line without the pressing away to Liverpool.

I may be slow thinking, but is the obvious problem here that if you don't press, you give the opponents time to play the passes behind our high line? Or is there something more to it?

[GeordieVillan]

30 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

This is really interesting. I hadn't thought of that before, a friend who is a Liverpool supporter texted me after the game and said the same thing. He also said that Liverpool did the same at the beginning of last season and that it was a catastrophe for them, he was very surprised that we played with such a high line without the pressing away to Liverpool.

I may be slow thinking, but is the obvious problem here that if you don't press, you give the opponents time to play the passes behind our high line? Or is there something more to it?

No that’s basically it! We played a high line yesterday and didn’t press the defence, so Trent had all day to pick out long passes in behind our defence. 
 

It was strange to see, as Emery knows the game much better than us, so either he was asking the players to press and they were just off the pace for some reason, or he was trying something different and it just didn’t work…

[Enda]

Liverpool’s first goal was offside, second goal was an unfortunate deflection.

Meanwhile Bailey completely missed a fairly easy chance from about six yards out. Had that gone in, the match could have transpired very differently.

But also, we were crap. But Emery will sort that. We’ll be fine. I’d like to see him drop a couple of players against Palace though.

[bannedfromHandV]

10 minutes ago, Enda said:

Liverpool’s first goal was offside, second goal was an unfortunate deflection.

Meanwhile Bailey completely missed a fairly easy chance from about six yards out. Had that gone in, the match could have transpired very differently.

But also, we were crap. But Emery will sort that. We’ll be fine. I’d like to see him drop a couple of players against Palace though.

Cash and McGinn missed guilt edged chances too

[Talldarkandransome]

32 minutes ago, Enda said:

Liverpool’s first goal was offside, second goal was an unfortunate deflection.

Meanwhile Bailey completely missed a fairly easy chance from about six yards out. Had that gone in, the match could have transpired very differently.

But also, we were crap. But Emery will sort that. We’ll be fine. I’d like to see him drop a couple of players against Palace though.

I like the positivity 

[Marka Ragnos]

42 minutes ago, Enda said:

Liverpool’s first goal was offside, second goal was an unfortunate deflection.

Meanwhile Bailey completely missed a fairly easy chance from about six yards out. Had that gone in, the match could have transpired very differently.

But also, we were crap. But Emery will sort that. We’ll be fine. I’d like to see him drop a couple of players against Palace though.

And ... we lost our core centre back after 16 minutes. Sort of important.

[Brumstopdogs]

 

[TomC]

I had other plans yesterday and just got around to watching the replay. Sometimes you see things differently watching on replay than you do watching live, and I saw things a bit differently than most people here.

Did we get outplayed? Yes. Was it as bad as most people are saying? No. They are a better team than we are, and Klopp said after the match that it was their best match in a while. Still, we had some decent stretches of possession and, despite their superior possession, much of it was sterile.

The two differences for me were Liverpool’s defending and our ineptness on set pieces. I think that the high line is being overly blamed.

As for Liverpool’s defending: They have better ball-winners. Their midfield often clogged up our attacks, and their backline came through when their midfield didn’t. Robertson was outstanding in the first half.

As for their goals and other good chances: Can you really blame the high line?

The first goal had nothing to do with the high line. Pau made a mistake to give up the corner. The goal itself was a tactical mistake off the corner. All our players were deep in our box; Unai (or MacPhee) failed to station somebody near the top of the box to deal with the “second phase ball,” to use the jargon. That’s where the second phase ball went and Szoboszlai had time to pick his target. Good finish too.

I agree that the Nunez goal was a high line problem. I don’t know if Liverpool got lucky or timed their run to perfection, but it worked. Pau let Nunez drift initially offside figuring he was out of the play. The pass, however, went to Salah, whose run was perfectly timed to stay onside. Digne stayed with Salah and put Nunez onside. Nunez then had a free run with no marker. However, that was the only high line problem of the match. It’s going to happen at least once per match.

Their chance at about the 38th minute happened while we played a high line, but would have certainly been ruled offside if we had not recovered the ball; the high line worked in that case.

Their chance in the 49th minute, where Nunez headed just wide of the post, was not really a high line problem. We were already retreating off the goal kick, not trying to hold the line. Salah was just too fast for Digne, then put in a great cross for Nunez, who escaped Cash thanks to Cash’s ongoing flaw, ball-watching.

The third goal was poor marking on the set piece. Digne was with Salah but let him go when the ball went into the middle, not anticipating a possible flick-on, which, of course, is exactly what happened. Really poor.

Notice how many of these chances Salah was involved with. He’s still one of the five or so best players in the world. We don’t have anyone that level (except maybe Emi in goal).

So: One blown high line, two awful pieces of defending on set pieces. I know which would be the priority to fix. Some better set piece defending and a better Cash header and we could have snatched a draw there.

 

[Enda]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Cash and McGinn missed guilt edged chances too

Cash’s header? No complaints, he got it on target with pace. Ideally would have been less central but you can’t ask for everything from a full back.

Which was McGinn’s?

[bannedfromHandV]

13 minutes ago, Enda said:

Cash’s header? No complaints, he got it on target with pace. Ideally would have been less central but you can’t ask for everything from a full back.

Which was McGinn’s?

First half, played in for a free shot on goal and put it over the bar 

[ChesterDad]

1 hour ago, Marka Ragnos said:

And ... we lost our core centre back after 16 minutes. Sort of important.

Agreed - there is an argument that you make your own luck in football, but against both N’castle and Liverpool we had zero luck whatsoever imo 

[Keener window-cleaner]

29 minutes ago, TomC said:

 

I had other plans yesterday and just got around to watching the replay. Sometimes you see things differently watching on replay than you do watching live, and I saw things a bit differently than most people here.

Did we get outplayed? Yes. Was it as bad as most people are saying? No. They are a better team than we are, and Klopp said after the match that it was their best match in a while. Still, we had some decent stretches of possession and, despite their superior possession, much of it was sterile.

The two differences for me were Liverpool’s defending and our ineptness on set pieces. I think that the high line is being overly blamed.

As for Liverpool’s defending: They have better ball-winners. Their midfield often clogged up our attacks, and their backline came through when their midfield didn’t. Robertson was outstanding in the first half.

As for their goals and other good chances: Can you really blame the high line?

The first goal had nothing to do with the high line. Pau made a mistake to give up the corner. The goal itself was a tactical mistake off the corner. All our players were deep in our box; Unai (or MacPhee) failed to station somebody near the top of the box to deal with the “second phase ball,” to use the jargon. That’s where the second phase ball went and Szoboszlai had time to pick his target. Good finish too.

I agree that the Nunez goal was a high line problem. I don’t know if Liverpool got lucky or timed their run to perfection, but it worked. Pau let Nunez drift initially offside figuring he was out of the play. The pass, however, went to Salah, whose run was perfectly timed to stay onside. Digne stayed with Salah and put Nunez onside. Nunez then had a free run with no marker. However, that was the only high line problem of the match. It’s going to happen at least once per match.

Their chance at about the 38th minute happened while we played a high line, but would have certainly been ruled offside if we had not recovered the ball; the high line worked in that case.

Their chance in the 49th minute, where Nunez headed just wide of the post, was not really a high line problem. We were already retreating off the goal kick, not trying to hold the line. Salah was just too fast for Digne, then put in a great cross for Nunez, who escaped Cash thanks to Cash’s ongoing flaw, ball-watching.

The third goal was poor marking on the set piece. Digne was with Salah but let him go when the ball went into the middle, not anticipating a possible flick-on, which, of course, is exactly what happened. Really poor.

Notice how many of these chances Salah was involved with. He’s still one of the five or so best players in the world. We don’t have anyone that level (except maybe Emi in goal).

So: One blown high line, two awful pieces of defending on set pieces. I know which would be the priority to fix. Some better set piece defending and a better Cash header and we could have snatched a draw there.

 

Thanks for that, that's a very good post and a great rational analysis. Agree that it is often easier to analyse the game watching the replay, during the game you often get caught by your emotions.

Quite interesting that as you say only one goal had a high line problem to it, but even so also was because that Nunez managed to trick Pau by first being offside and then making the run. Not sure he did it intentionally but it got the better of Pau.

It sure has been a lot of focus on the high line but it's true that most of the goals was a set piece problem.

Also correct to point out Cash's flaws, I wanted us to start Konsa at RB as I think Cash is a liability at RB against the better teams. I got quite worried when Carlos went off and Cash moved to RB and Bailey RW, Bailey is not good defensively either, so that made our right hand side vulnerable. I guess switching McGinn to the right hand side was an attempt to tighten up that flank, but it doesn't halp against Cash's defensive flaws.

[srsmithusa]

i felt that too many players didn't assert themselves with any quickness.  Any loose ball, liverpool players reacted quickly and we didn't.  They anticipated and stepped in to passes that the intended recipient was "waiting" for it to arrive.  Diaby was the only one to attack any balls with quickness.  Luiz played well, but not by being quick and aggressive, but by being wily.  They couldn't anticipate his play because he consistently did the unexpected.

Quickness and agrression was the difference.  They had it.  We didn't.

First time i've ever given Unai Poor.

I also gave the referee poor, not becuase he was terribly one-sided or made bad calls, but his positioning was terrible.  Referee's are supposed to run a diagonal.  He ran straight up and down the middle of the field.  Not good enough for any top level referee.

[TomC]

We all love Unai because he's the first world-class tactician we've had in decades. Just because he's a world class tactician doesn't mean that he's the only one, or even the best one. He's going to come up against other managers in his class, and sometimes, he's going to get out-thought. Klopp is at least his equal if not his superior.

Liverpool certainly have a superior squad, even if the gap isn't as wide as, say, three years ago. Salah was involved in two of Liverpool's goals and the best of their other chances. We don't have a player on his level. Liverpool, Man City, and Arsenal are still a clear cut above us.

And you can't blame Unai for the third goal when Digne let Salah get away after the ball went elsewhere, failing to anticipate a possible flick-on.

So, did this result worry me? No.

 

[villa4europe]

8 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

First half, played in for a free shot on goal and put it over the bar 

McGinns miss summed up our day, it was a really poor pass from Watkins to Diaby, it was a poor pass from Diaby to mcginn giving the defender a sniff and then a rushed poor finish from mcginn

Complete lack of composure and belief

 

[Zatman]

On 03/09/2023 at 18:24, villa4europe said:

Who thought the ref was very poor out of interest?

I didn't think he had anything to do, I'd like the 1st goal to be offside but it's not (as per our goal last week)

Me for a few reasons. His VAR mates allowed the offside, Kamara booking when Liverpool players did similar with no yellow and finally it had no impact on the outcome but showed the referee bias. We won a throw in the 2nd half and he pointed our way but because a Liverpool player took it he changed his mind and pointed the other way

[Zatman]

On 03/09/2023 at 18:50, briny_ear said:

@jackbauer was trying to persuade me that most posters think he will come good whereas all I could see was scapegoating. I think you forgot to add in the bit about how you are sure he will come good.

Maybe should learn what scapegoat means unless you think Torres was blameless on Sunday

[TRO]

3 hours ago, TomC said:

We all love Unai because he's the first world-class tactician we've had in decades. Just because he's a world class tactician doesn't mean that he's the only one, or even the best one. He's going to come up against other managers in his class, and sometimes, he's going to get out-thought. Klopp is at least his equal if not his superior.

Liverpool certainly have a superior squad, even if the gap isn't as wide as, say, three years ago. Salah was involved in two of Liverpool's goals and the best of their other chances. We don't have a player on his level. Liverpool, Man City, and Arsenal are still a clear cut above us.

And you can't blame Unai for the third goal when Digne let Salah get away after the ball went elsewhere, failing to anticipate a possible flick-on.

So, did this result worry me? No.

 

wise words.....but some of the issues were far more simple.

you cannot play a highline against such quick forwards and at the same time allow a player like TAA to ping balls over the top of us, with the deft toch he has.....Trent should have been shut down.

A Highline has to be accompanied by a competent press.....not a half press or a consolation press, an aggressive press, full on energy and courage.

Football has an industry now intent on making the game complex......but the truth is, its simple......and the problem was simple.

They just didn't do it.

[tinker]

3 hours ago, Zatman said:

Me for a few reasons. His VAR mates allowed the offside, Kamara booking when Liverpool players did similar with no yellow and finally it had no impact on the outcome but showed the referee bias. We won a throw in the 2nd half and he pointed our way but because a Liverpool player took it he changed his mind and pointed the other way

Forgot all about that throw in, weird. 

[TRO]

On 04/09/2023 at 13:41, Vive_La_Villa said:

Said before the game I had a bad feeling about this one. We miss Mings a lot anf are still nowhere the near the levels of teams like Liverpool yet. Whenever we beat poor teams our fans get carried away with talk of top 4. It’s easy to forget there are some very good teams in the league when just played Everton and Burnley. 
 

Need another response against Palace.

Yes we do, tend to.....and Liverpool fans will get carried away, with beating us so comprehensively, when imo, we gifted them, that performance....many other teams won't be so benevolent.

A positive response against Palace is our only option, but we must learn, what we did wrong against Newcastle and Liverpool.....by that I mean, maybe playing well, we still would have lost, but not so emphatically or so easily....we have to be harder to beat than that to have any realistic ambition.