Ratings & Reactions: Liverpool v Villa

[Philosopher]

So very poor performance, on a number of levels. But we shouldn't let this dampen our enthusiasm, temper it a little maybe, that is all.

Firstly I have to address the defense. We were awful in defence. But I did see this coming, it wasn't a surprise to me. I said it after Newcastle away that we now have to build a new defense. 

Mings injury wasn't a simple replace A with B and we're all good. We lost our organiser and the real leader if the team. In Pau Torres we have a new signing that (as we have seen) needs time to adapt his game to the premier league. He doesn't speak English, so communication and organisation becomes a problem. We brought Carlos in as a Spanish speaker to help with that (but he got injured and went off), but even then those two still have to form a partnership.

In a nutshell this new defense is in it's infantile stages and needs time and matches to grow. I voiced my concern after the Burnley win that the new defense hasn't been tested yet and Liverpool would be the real test, they were and it was a failure. 

We need to be patient with the defenders and in particular Pau, as he will need at least half a season before he truly starts to get comfortable.

The other issues were leadership and the midfield. There wasn't anyone on that pitch that could get the team going. McGinn leads by example, so does Luiz (I believe he is a real leader in this team). McGinn was invisible for periods and definitely didn't lead by example. Kamara was all over the shop. Luiz did his best, but his fellow midfielders did little to help.

We struggled to play out, particularly in the first half. And we struggled to get out of our own half when we did find a way past their high press.

Now the positives. Because there were a couple.

Tielemens and Zaniolo came on are really competed, showed the determination and aggression needed to compete against a team like Liverpool. Tielemens may very well get a start ahead of Kamara in our next match. 

Zaniolo proved what I already thought, his movement, strength, and ability to link things makes him a perfect fit to play off Watkins. Classy player, we must nurture him carefully to keep fit and healthy. He is a next level player! He also has the aura of a leader.

Finally in all that patheticness we created chances. We are far more dangerous in attack compared to last season.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Philosopher

[The_Steve]

Watching the highlights now, isn’t Salah blocking Emi’s view for the first goal?! How is that offside?

[Philosopher]

21 minutes ago, The_Steve said:

Watching the highlights now, isn’t Salah blocking Emi’s view for the first goal?! How is that offside?

It is offside, but that was hit too cleanly, Emi isn't saving that! So I'm not going to get salty over it!

Edited September 4, 2023 by Philosopher

[villa4europe]

44 minutes ago, The_Steve said:

Watching the highlights now, isn’t Salah blocking Emi’s view for the first goal?! How is that offside?

that's not the current rule

as we saw last week vs burnley

[The_Steve]

10 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

that's not the current rule

as we saw last week vs burnley

The rules are dumb and make no sense in general 

[TRO]

18 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

I'm sorry to say that @TRO was right in being worried for our defence in this game. The amount of times they caught us with balls behind our defence was not nice to see. I mostly thank Konsa it stayed 3-0.

why do you say, you were sorry, I was right......I might be sometimes......just teasing.

Look, its all opinions, and there isn't always a right or wrong answer, to many things being at fault.

My wife and I are season ticket holders and sit next to each other, and we don't always agree on whats going on, on the pitch......The reason is, we all look for different things among a compendium of elements.

so far.....I don't see the same level of resilience, I saw last season in our team....it could be injuries, it could be players taking time to settle in....but for me there is one glaring issue, amongst a catalogue of sub issues......We are not going after opponents as a team or group, we are waiting for them to make mistakes.....thats passive and its dangerous against good sides.

against good sides, you have to disrupt, and that means engaging in physical challenging.....what we was doing was semi pressing, running up to opponents and stopping a yard or 2 away from them.

Our running off the ball with any meaningfulness is absent, we are simply waiting for the pass to start an attack.

Its not easy to come up with a one fits all solution, but I am clear in my own head, its not a bad day at the office.....this is an intrinsic set of faults, governed by an overriding one.

I can't think of a reason, with the knowledge we have, why one of our players didn't shut down TAA.....He was the source of all our woes, and sadly has been before now.....Maybe we haven't got a player with the skill set to do that.

This was not a one off...if we think that, we are kidding ourselves.....any discerning Villa Fan, will see the shortfalls of our team on Sunday.

I hope UE finds a solution to playing good sides away, because for me, he found it last season.

Ps I am under no doubt, we are missing Mings more than some of us thought.....His Attributes are sorely missed, I am surprised a similar version was not sought, one with aerial prowess and defensive dominance...however, I do accept Torres and Carlos will take time to gel.

PPS In my humble opinion....we need to play a style away from home, that has more respect for the opposition, but less benevolence too.......good defending is not a sin, and away in particualar against the better sides might serve us better, as opposed to commiting so many to attack.

[villa4europe]

7 minutes ago, The_Steve said:

The rules are dumb and make no sense in general 

no disagreement there!

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Philosopher said:

So very poor performance, on a number of levels. But we shouldn't let this dampen our enthusiasm, temper it a little maybe, that is all.

Firstly I have to address the defense. We were awful in defence. But I did see this coming, it wasn't a surprise to me. I said it after Newcastle away that we now have to build a new defense. 

Mings injury wasn't a simple replace A with B and we're all good. We lost our organiser and the real leader if the team. In Pau Torres we have a new signing that (as we have seen) needs time to adapt his game to the premier league. He doesn't speak English, so communication and organisation becomes a problem. We brought Carlos in as a Spanish speaker to help with that (but he got injured and went off), but even then those two still have to form a partnership.

In a nutshell this new defense is in it's infantile stages and needs time and matches to grow. I voiced my concern after the Burnley win that the new defense hasn't been tested yet and Liverpool would be the real test, they were and it was a failure. 

We need to be patient with the defenders and in particular Pau, as he will need at least half a season before he truly starts to get comfortable.

The other issues were leadership and the midfield. There wasn't anyone on that pitch that could get the team going. McGinn leads by example, so does Luiz (I believe he is a real leader in this team). McGinn was invisible for periods and definitely didn't lead by example. Kamara was all over the shop. Luiz did his best, but his fellow midfielders did little to help.

We struggled to play out, particularly in the first half. And we struggled to get out of our own half when we did find a way past their high press.

Now the positives. Because there were a couple.

Tielemens and Zaniolo came on are really competed, showed the determination and aggression needed to compete against a team like Liverpool. Tielemens may very well get a start ahead of Kamara in our next match. 

Zaniolo proved what I already thought, his movement, strength, and ability to link things makes him a perfect fit to play off Watkins. Classy player, we must nurture him carefully to keep fit and healthy. He is a next level player! He also has the aura of a leader.

Finally in all that patheticness we created chances. We are far more dangerous in attack compared to last season.

We cannot give better teams than us the latitiude to play, with the ease they did......We have to learn and execute a way of stopping the opposition from getting a foothold in a game.....That offering was puny and uncompetitive......our off the ball running to close down the ball, was non existant.

We can all call on incidents of simply poor defending, which includes positional play, blocking and closing down.....Liverpool, no disrespect to them, had a field day....at one stage the game represented a training session, such was their dominance of the ball.

Its hard for one player, to have an influence on the competive nature of the team, they all have to be at it.....and I am not fooled by semi pressing, it lacks conviction and a willingness to win.

Like you, I have seen the signs too...the worry now is what can UE do to fix it.......I am not convinced by a team loaded with attacking intended players, and seemingly little focus on defensive nous.....I think players like Dendoncker, Chambers need to be considered to  " do a job " in games like this, they might not be the best ball players, but can help stop the oppositions ball players.

Every team needs players, who can stop opponents threats.....I still, am unsure that we have enough of this quality in the squad.

Edited September 4, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

59 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

that's not the current rule

as we saw last week vs burnley

I think IFAB rule 11.2 is clear.

where  the problem exisits it still relies on opinion/interpretation of the referee.......That renders rules subjective, in effect

The old rules, 3 would have been offside.....but Peter Schmeichel was adamant it was offside.

Whether that would have changed the outcome of the game, is anyones guess.

[villa4europe]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

I think IFAB rule 11.2 is clear.

where  the problem exisits it still relies on opinion/interpretation of the referee.......That renders rules subjective, in effect

The old rules, 3 would have been offside.....but Peter Schmeichel was adamant it was offside.

Whether that would have changed the outcome of the game, is anyones guess.

ok ill tweak my statement....that's not how PGMOL currently interpret the rule

our goal vs burnley, liverpools yesterday and man citys saturday should all be offside - but as long as all 3 are given and they're consistent then its shit but its not unfair

its in a few weeks when they inevitably start scrambling and rewriting stuff that the real problems start

you cant say that yesterday was offside but diaby vs burnley wasnt

[Vive_La_Villa]

Said before the game I had a bad feeling about this one. We miss Mings a lot anf are still nowhere the near the levels of teams like Liverpool yet. Whenever we beat poor teams our fans get carried away with talk of top 4. It’s easy to forget there are some very good teams in the league when just played Everton and Burnley. 
 

Need another response against Palace.

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

ok ill tweak my statement....that's not how PGMOL currently interpret the rule

our goal vs burnley, liverpools yesterday and man citys saturday should all be offside - but as long as all 3 are given and they're consistent then its shit but its not unfair

its in a few weeks when they inevitably start scrambling and rewriting stuff that the real problems start

you cant say that yesterday was offside but diaby vs burnley wasnt

Well Peter Schmeichel's view (as a goal keeper) suggests that the goals of Man city and Liverpools were different.....I am not sure why, he said that, but he was adamant.

I find your comment about 3 wrongs can effectively be deemed as a right.....worrying.......being consistently wrong, has no bearing on being right....on that basis the Police can nick you for doing 29 in a 30 MPH zone, because he thinks you intended to go faster?

We seem to be making rules, that are becoming more subjective, and not less subjective.......We as Aston Villa, do seem to have our unfair share of these subjective interpretations.

We are closely moving towards referee's becoming less accountable and more autonomous, due to the complexity of ruling and the interpretation, those rules require.....that seems to me contrary to the overall objective, of brevity, simplicity and consensus.

Webby has a bit of work to do.

 

[tinker]

52 minutes ago, TRO said:

That offering was puny and uncompetitive......our off the ball running to close down the ball, was non existant.

This is how I saw it, we never tried to engage with their players when they was on the ball, we stood off them..Doug did half heartedly try and close down on some players but Kamara didn't,  he stood in open space when the opposition were in possession, McGinn was out on the left, he came inside late in the second half and it made a difference.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, tinker said:

This is how I saw it, we never tried to engage with their players when they was on the ball, we stood off them..Doug did half heartedly try and close down on some players but Kamara didn't,  he stood in open space when the opposition were in possession, McGinn was out on the left, he came inside late in the second half and it made a difference.

I simply don't understand why more fans didn't see this......my mate phoned me after the game and said what did you think, and I told him.....he said " I didn't think there was much in it between the teams".....I said " I'll see you Tuesday"

We all have our unique way of watching the team.......good job, I suppose.

[Philosopher]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

We cannot give better teams than us the latitiude to play, with the ease they did......We have to learn and execute a way of stopping the opposition from getting a foothold in a game.....That offering was puny and uncompetitive......our off the ball running to close down the ball, was non existant.

We can all call on incidents of simply poor defending, which includes positional play, blocking and closing down.....Liverpool, no disrespect to them, had a field day....at one stage the game represented a training session, such was their dominance of the ball.

Its hard for one player, to have an influence on the competive nature of the team, they all have to be at it.....and I am not fooled by semi pressing, it lacks conviction and a willingness to win.

Like you, I have seen the signs too...the worry now is what can UE do to fix it.......I am not convinced by a team loaded with attacking intended players, and seemingly little focus on defensive nous.....I think players like Dendoncker, Chambers need to be considered to  " do a job " in games like this, they might not be the best ball players, but can help stop the oppositions ball players.

Every team needs players, who can stop opponents threats.....I still, am unsure that we have enough of this quality in the squad.

I agree that there was a lack of desire to go out and compete. To me it looked like the turned up on the field and thought they could and coast to a result like they did in the previous 4 games. Only Luiz, Digne and Konsa looked to get at Liverpool. The rest lacked impetus. Zaniolo and Tielemens had that when they came on.

[maqroll]

I'm feeling less annoyed today. They had home field and a healthy squad, while we had 4 starters missing and another early CB injury to contend with. 

The only thing that still bothers me is when the going got tough, McGinn shrunk away, and you cannot have your captain do that on hostile ground. 

The mental strength of this side will be tested all season and with Mings out, McGinn has to be able to rally the troops out there, it can't be all on Emery.

If McGinn can't do it, someone else needs to step up.

[Sulberto21]

In the return match Mcginn should man mark Trent. Looking at some numbers from the game it was TAA who created their dangerous situations.

Last season he wasn’t able to because we man marked him. He dropped into Central Defence to get the ball hence had more freedom than we wanted him to have. 

[TRO]

14 minutes ago, maqroll said:

I'm feeling less annoyed today. They had home field and a healthy squad, while we had 4 starters missing and another early CB injury to contend with. 

The only thing that still bothers me is when the going got tough, McGinn shrunk away, and you cannot have your captain do that on hostile ground. 

The mental strength of this side will be tested all season and with Mings out, McGinn has to be able to rally the troops out there, it can't be all on Emery.

If McGinn can't do it, someone else needs to step up.

I am not defending McGinn here, but 1 man can't create a siege mentality.....what he can do, is win a duel with such intent it sets a tone....He did it against Newcastle last season at home...but failed to set any tone against Liverpool.

But On Sunday, everyone was off it.....for me the worry is, I still don't think we have enough of these types to turn to....we have gone out and rightly or wrongly, bought another batch of footballers, so what, many will say.....but who is going to win the ball back or turn it over?

Kamara is a shadow of himself, right now, in many ways.....we have attacking full backs,3 of them, we have  bought in 2 ball playing centre backs, so who is doing the defending?......who has defending as their first " go to" attribute?

names on a postage stamp?

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by TRO

[danceoftheshamen]

Must admit I said, at the moment Mings got injured against Newcastle, to my daughter, that we were now shafted for the season defensively. What I meant was against the better sides, especially those good at set pieces like Liverpool and maybe a few of the teams who lump it forward to big physical men in the box, that we would struggle and concede lots of goals. 

Sadly it looks like this will be our achilles heel this season, unless Lenglet suddenly rocks up and is that guy (which I am pretty sure he is not btw). I'm not too worried about us attacking wise (apart from Watkins & Bailey continuing to disappoint). Midfield we got owned at Anfield but that is quite unusual and we did still create a few chances.

I just cannot see a way around these issues with our current crop as we simply have no replacement for Mings's aerial prowess and we continue to persist with a couple of duds up top.

If Emery can sort this out he really is a master.

[El Segundo]

20 hours ago, GeordieVillan said:

I managed to get a ticket to the game and did the 8 hour round trip to sit in the Liverpool end with a mate. The journey back was honestly brutal and depressing.

I have my concerns about the high line, and as has been discussed to death - sometimes we will get caught out. However, what I don’t understand is how we can play the high line, and not press at the same time. That is suicide. The Liverpool fans around me all commented that they didn’t realise Villa played such a high line, “they play as high as us” etc. But they also very quickly observed the difference was that when we were high in the first half, sometimes as high as the half way line, we weren’t applying any pressure on the ball. We got caught out with a simple ball over the top and quick one-two every time Liverpool went forward.

Let’s be clear, I had high hopes before the game, by no means expecting to win, but I thought we had a chance, and at least was confident that we would put on a show and make a game of it.

McGinn was well off it today, missing simple short passes, back down to earth after I said I wouldn’t trade him for any midfielder in the league other than KDB!

Likewise Watkins, his confidence in the league looks shot to bits already, he desperately needs a league goal. Duran genuinely made a difference when he came on - he’s raw and makes bad choices, but he stretched the game, got involved and posed a small threat, which is more than Watkins did today.

Luiz and Kamara are neat and tidy, but they were bullied at times today. Same as at Newcastle. Likewise Digne was pulling out of tackles from what I could see, maybe he doesn’t want to miss out on a transfer this week. Ramsey and Moreno will be straight back into this team.

Robertson had Bailey on toast, other than one moment of magic. I don’t think Bailey can play in these away games, he’s a passenger, and it might have been better to bring on Chambers for Carlos, and leave Cash on the right wing.

We could have scored 3 or 4 goals with the chances we had, but honestly it felt like Liverpool could have scored 9 or 10. This was a worse performance than Newcastle for me.

A very bad day at the office, and there will be more days like this. No knee-jerk reactions, the players are generally still good enough and the manager is still the man. 
 

One last point, surely Salah was in an offside position and blocking Martinez’s view on the first goal? I havnt seen any of the tv coverage but there has been no discussion on the radio as there was about the Man City goal yesterday?

Bang on,  the high line can and does work well but absolutely depends on pressing from the front so they don't have time or space to play the ball over the top or through gaps for runners.  Not applying that pressure leaves a high defence exposed at the best of times, but to give so much time and space to one of the best long passers in the game was a recipe for disaster.  It's one aspect of the game that Watkins is much vaunted for but he was woeful at it yesterday.  Much worse than Newcastle where I thought we pretty much matched them and played some very decent stuff until Konsa's error deflated us.  Yesterday the whole team seemed lethargic and slow from the off, and there are far fewer positives to take from it.