The Moderate Politics Thread

[The Fun Factory]

I was more central but I going more to the left after a dozen plus years of tory rule and the realisation that the  late 90'e early 00 third way in hindsight just papered over the cracks of our increasingly unequal society.

[Captain_Townsend]

I am a centrist. The lesson of the 1930s was to bring things to the centre. Centrist politics after 1945 led to stability, social progress and the best living standards western Europe has seen. Social Democracy, Christian Democracy, third way etc all tried to bring aboit Social cohesion in Europe (British politics have always been a bit different, more emphasis on the individual in the British right).

The drift, since 2008-2009 to polarised politics has been a disaster. It has got people at each other's throats and it hasn't been conducive to better policy.

The world would be a better place if people went back to the centre and tried to  work more collaboratively to resolve issues. 

 

 

[Chindie]

If we're to get into generalisms...

As someone mostly left of centre, I find the centrist position is often a bit holier then thou, and positioned as the intellectual choice when it's no more or less intellectual generally than any other position, and at the lazier end is arguably less intellectual.

There's also the distinct feeling that the centre is actually happier looking right - there's an aphorisms that centrists hate socialists more than they hate fascists, and I'm not sure it's wrong.

[Mark Albrighton]

Clowns to the left of me.
Jokers to the right.
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

[Panto_Villan]

1 minute ago, Chindie said:

If we're to get into generalisms...

As someone mostly left of centre, I find the centrist position is often a bit holier then thou, and positioned as the intellectual choice when it's no more or less intellectual generally than any other position, and at the lazier end is arguably less intellectual.

There's also the distinct feeling that the centre is actually happier looking right - there's an aphorisms that centrists hate socialists more than they hate fascists, and I'm not sure it's wrong.

Yeah, I sort of agree with this - like, if you pressed me, I'd say that the UK naturally leans to the right politically. But then what constitutes the center should move to reflect that, right?

I've met quite a few people who would define New Labour as being center-right rather than center-left, too, which I think contributes to the water being a bit muddy (although obviously the center ends up leaning right if you've redefined all the centrist parties as being right of center).

[KentVillan]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

If we're to get into generalisms...

As someone mostly left of centre, I find the centrist position is often a bit holier then thou, and positioned as the intellectual choice when it's no more or less intellectual generally than any other position, and at the lazier end is arguably less intellectual.

There's also the distinct feeling that the centre is actually happier looking right - there's an aphorisms that centrists hate socialists more than they hate fascists, and I'm not sure it's wrong.

This is a parochial Corbyn v Starmer (or similar) take though.

The Tory party has Centrists too, and they are accused by the more right wing figures on their own side of being "Lib Dems" or "Blairites" or even "Socialists".

I see the holier than thou attitude as being *much* more prevalent among those who have dug in and branded themselves as the true, no surrender voice of their movement.

I agree, though, that there's no association with being more intellectual. There are lots of stupid and uninformed centrists. I do think centrists generally have a more realistic view of what democratic politics involves, but of course they can be completely wrong on individual policies... whereas figures further to the left or right generally IMO are more unrealistic about how persuasive their views are, but might be absolutely right about specific policy ideas.

[VILLAMARV]

I definitely feel strongly that political beliefs or leanings are not a metric of someone's ability to comprimise or negotiate.

Like a few others have posted, an agreed upon definition from the OP might help. I'm not sure I know what the thread's raison d'etre is.

[rjw63]

If I want to get in the middle of these sweater puppies does that make me centrist? 

[Follyfoot]

3 hours ago, rjw63 said:

If I want to get in the middle of these sweater puppies does that make me centrist? 

Ha ha ha ha ha, you don’t get many of them to the pound 

{giggle} oh Sid you are saucy

slap…. Ha ha ha ha ha 

[blandy]

6 hours ago, Chindie said:

As someone mostly left of centre, I find the centrist position is often a bit holier then thou, and positioned as the intellectual choice when it's no more or less intellectual generally than any other position, and at the lazier end is arguably less intellectual.

That’s interesting. I agree it’s no more or less intellectual. I’ve never heard or felt it is claimed to be more intellectual, though.
My perception is that the extremes are more about (their) views on morality, for example “it’s morally wrong for that person to have all those things when this person has nothing.. Redistribute his wealth” v “it’s morally wrong for that person sat on their couch smoking weed to be given money taken from this person who earns it by hard graft”.  The centre position I’ve felt is mostly, or more, about practicality, so the centre left might agree that poorer people need helping or the centre right might agree that taxes on workers need to be lower, but they’re accepting of the notions that “abolish all taxes” or “no one should be allowed to earn more than 50 grand” aren’t actually desirable to the mass population, nor achievable anyway.

I think that most criticism of centrist positions is around “lack of ambition, no vision, caution…etc” not about being falsely claimed as an intellectual choice, but I do get that if a person is well left or well right of centre, they’ll absolutely have been told by centrists that their (e.g.) hard Brexit and immigration ban / abolition of the armed forces and defund the police are “stupid, you haven’t thought this through, have you?”. Which will obviously portray that centrist disagreement as intellectual.

I like it when reality hits “extreme” (or at least well away from the centre) parties. I mean this in a good way, like seeing the Green Party in Germany pushing for more arms for Ukraine in the face of Olof Scholz’s prevarication, for example and I also like it when the “extreme” (or at least well away from the centre) views hit the timidity of the centre and force the centre to move - we’re seeing that a lot with stuff like (sticking with the Greens) plastic bag tax, fracking, renewable power generation… all things that were once “extreme” are now not.

[CVByrne]

10 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think there's an awful lot of leeway in the definitions of moderate and centrist - and I think they're very different things.

I'd say that what's described as centrism in the UK is usually a brand of corporatism - a sort of politics that tries not to do too much that might get in the banks way.

Moderate seems to be one of those words that initially sounds very sensible and actually means absolutely nothing at all.

@Marka Ragnos how would you define the two things?

 

 

 

Obviously this would be the view of someone from pretty far left such as yourself. It's why it's not really possible to define a centrist it means different things to different people depending on if the hold left wing or right wing views as the centre is right or left of those positions. 

I hold views that would be highly unpopular to the right and popular with the left and vice versa. I think of things from both perspectives. 

[fruitvilla]

12 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Centrism is relative to the political context, so there's no contradiction really. A moderate is different in different countries and different eras, or within different movements, but it's still a recognisable tendency in any political context.

This

May 79 voted for Maggie, January 80 got on a plane and woke up a raving liberal in Johannesburg.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

I think that most criticism of centrist positions is around “lack of ambition, no vision, caution…etc” not about being falsely claimed as an intellectual choice, but I do get that if a person is well left or well right of centre, they’ll absolutely have been told by centrists that their (e.g.) hard Brexit and immigration ban / abolition of the armed forces and defund the police are “stupid, you haven’t thought this through, have you?”. Which will obviously portray that centrist disagreement as intellectual.

My perception of a lot of centrism is to acknowledge a current ‘thing’ is broken, tut at it, and then have a very extensive and persuasive argument as to why we can’t actually do anything very much about it, which is unfortunate, but as they deal in realpolitik not fancy ideals, well, there you go.

Some would call that maintaining the middle ground so as not to spook the markets. Others might think it was managed decline whilst protecting the extraction of profit.

Starmer pledges would be a typical example. £28 billion to save the economy and save the planet in his first year in office. Well, maybe not £28 billion, maybe half that, and over a longer timescale, possibly… but it’s certainly still a thing we’d like, we’re just, mmmm, it is a lot of money now we’ve said it out loud….and we don’t want to disrupt any existing business models…

 

 

[sharkyvilla]

I'd consider myself centrist in that I'm a bit to the right economically and a bit to the left socially and suspect vast swathes of the quiet, more educated middle class are the same.  I get the impression that the more you engage in stuff like Twitter, the more stereotypically left or right you become.  You can take a person's opinion on one thing and you know exactly what they think on all the other political matters, getting even more entrenched as you get more and more involved in arguments with the other side.  It seems pointless and exhausting to constantly do it.

[The Fun Factory]

It seems politics, like society in general, is becoming more polarised. For many the art of the possible is not enough.

[bickster]

13 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

It seems politics, like society in general, is becoming more polarised. For many the art of the possible is not enough.

And that is the other difficulty with centre ground politics, you get attacked from both extremes and usually with more vigour

One side will call it watered down Marxism, the other will call it weak Libertarianism or even not even the weak version

[OutByEaster?]

3 hours ago, CVByrne said:

Obviously this would be the view of someone from pretty far left such as yourself. It's why it's not really possible to define a centrist it means different things to different people depending on if the hold left wing or right wing views as the centre is right or left of those positions. 

I mean, that's true, but the issues with definitions of centrism in terms of how they're applied to actual politics rather than the way that people talk about them is that they are set almost entirely by a corporate structure that controls media. 

For example. public opinion in the US is massively in favour of public healthcare, gun controls and so on - but those views (held by the majority) are always described as extreme in any major public discussion. The centrist position is the one that got paid for - centrism in the US is what JP Morgan Chase decide it is.

If anything, I'd suggest that the embracing of the terms, centrist and moderate is an acceptance of a reduced role for democracy - an enforced reluctance to put the demands of people into practice.

Reasonable people still believe in actual solutions to extreme problems.

[OutByEaster?]

Just now, bickster said:

And that is the other difficulty with centre ground politics, you get attacked from both extremes and usually with more vigour

I would say the main difficulty with centre ground politics is that there isn't actually a centre ground politics.

It's a myth that makes people feel comfortable.

[bickster]

Just now, OutByEaster? said:

I would say the main difficulty with centre ground politics is that there isn't actually a centre ground politics.

It's a myth that makes people feel comfortable.

No, what you mean is there isn't a doctrine, a philosophy, not that it doesn't exist

If it doesn't exist stop attacking it otherwise you are tilting at windmills

[OutByEaster?]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

No, what you mean is there isn't a doctrine, a philosophy, not that it doesn't exist

If it doesn't exist stop attacking it otherwise you are tilting at windmills

Aha, I am reasonable and everybody else is not, but you cannot criticise me because I do not believe in anything.

Actually, that's probably a decent working description of the moderate centrist ideal (as opposed to the practised corporatism of parties we'd describe as centrist in the UK).