Jas10 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 33 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: I was hoping you would pop in with these mate. Just tired of the suggestions being shot down by the " Premier League experience etc ". I've secretly been hoping we turned to these original links anyway, if i'm honest. Final thing to add, and I think of it now and again. When we were doing well and even topping the league for a while under John Gregory…our team was largely British based and we’d put ourselves in a good position. John was held back by Doug Ellis and his reluctance to loosen the pursestrings. Ok, Angel struggled but it wasn’t solely based on him being a foreign player. He had personal/family issues to deal with. Once that was dealt with, he became a star for us (under O’Leary). We weren’t well equipped as a club to integrate foreign players and to help them settle. We later employed someone to focus on that task. Anyway, Gregory was looking at players like Saviola and Aimar, Juninho too. I seriously doubt we would have fallen away so much and remained a 6th-midtable team had we brought players of that calibre in… We ended up bringing crap ones in instead… The similar sort of thing happened under MON but he was a stubborn prick who wasted funds on shite players and handed out stupid contracts… was given too much of a free rein… and we heavily paid the price… Apologies for going off topic. I still think ESR would be a good signing btw. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osmark86 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Don't care where they come from if they're ballers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 20 minutes ago, osmark86 said: Don't care where they come from if they're ballers Precisely 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jas10 said: Much appreciated… it tires me too. Personally, I don’t shit myself at the thought of signing foreign players as many seem to do. If you employ a specialist scouting team that does it’s research well, you can find the right players with the right personality and of exceptional talent and value. British based is no guarantee either, there’s plenty of home based crap about. We’ve been burned on that front too, many times. Most recently, Drinkwater & Barkley… too many overrated and overpaid players… Most of the greatest players and biggest stars came in from abroad, it’s what the most successful teams too. They can transform and elevate a team - if you get the right ones. All anyone needs to do is look up a list of the greatest ever players to grace this league. I mean, why pay over 40/50m for fairly run of the mill PL players when you can sign the likes of the next Argentine superstar and the best no. 10 in South America for a lot, lot less? And we already have 4 South American's and are more prepared as a club to help them settle in and integrate. I know we’ve fed the media the line of us looking for or prioritising home based players but it certainly doesn’t rule out a foreign star or two. We signed Traore and Sanson last season for example. I don't think the club have ever suggested a jaundiced view towards signing Foreign players. What they have identified is a quicker rout to settling in with homegrown players....maybe more chance of them staying loyal to the club too, but here again, examples on both sides. The most important piece of criteria, is getting the right player for the designated role irrespective of where he comes from. Edited July 9, 2021 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Just now, TRO said: I don't think the club have ever suggested a jaundiced view towards signing Foreign players. What they have identified is a quicker rout to settling in with homegrown players....maybe more chance of them staying loyal to the club too, but here again, examples on both sides. The most important piece of criteria, is getting the right player for the designated role irrespective of where he comes from. I wasn’t referring to the view of the club, more to the view of some fans and the tired old “PL experience” line… I agree, it doesn’t matter where they come form so long as they have the right character and skill set, plus you’re much more likely to find technically proficient players at much better value abroad. Again, look at the top sides and the history of their best players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Jas10 said: I wasn’t referring to the view of the club, more to the view of some fans and the tired old “PL experience” line… I agree, it doesn’t matter where they come form so long as they have the right character and skill set, plus you’re much more likely to find technically proficient players at much better value abroad. Again, look at the top sides and the history of their best players. Maybe the value bit, but the technically, better, is debatable, for me....maybe used to be, but we have caught up, like they have caught up on us with the physical side....all much of a muchness now IMV. We have an array of technical talent, in our national team right now, I am not sure distinctions can be drawn to any conclusions, because exmples exist of both sides.....We could after Sunday be looking at National and club sides winning the 2 biggest European competitions, so what does that say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, TRO said: Maybe the value bit, but the technically, better, is debatable, for me....maybe used to be, but we have caught up, like they have caught up on us with the physical side....all much of a muchness now IMV. We have an array of technical talent, in our national team right now, I am not sure distinctions can be drawn to any conclusions, because exmples exist of both sides.....We could after Sunday be looking at National and club sides winning the 2 biggest European competitions, so what does that say? Do you not think that the influx of foreign talent has inspired and improved British players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHY Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jas10 said: Do you not think that the influx of foreign talent has inspired and improved British players? Foreign talent has been around for 30 years now and I don’t think it’s had as much influence as some would believe. Could argue it’s more likely held a lot of players back. Personally think grassroots football has had more impact on British players. The coaching, set ups and quality of academies is light years ahead of what it was 25 years ago. Technically home grown players are now on a par with their European counterparts. We are now starting to see the benefit of the restructuring of grassroots football and will continue to reap the benefits for years to come. It’s a testament to all the hard work that is put in by everyone at that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMitch Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 I still think we're very likely to pull this ESR signing off... If he was signing a new deal with Arsenal, it would have been signed by now because he reported back for preseason this week. #WaitForWednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jas10 said: Do you not think that the influx of foreign talent has inspired and improved British players? Yes, I certainly do.....and I have no hang ups, of buying players from abroad, but I am equally supportive of the clubs view too and it makes sense to me. The pursuit and development of Home grown Talent is one I fully support and the clubs approach to it has been staggeringly good. However, I am not going to go overboard either on the notion, that their technical abilities are something we can't breed at home and in doing so, help to engender a loyalty of much stronger proportions...as we experience with Jack( hope that don't come home to bite me) I also think there has been rakes of players from abroad, that have been no better than what we have and in some cases stifled the homegrown opportunities. I know it will never be admitted, but a foreign name, will regularly raise hopes against a good old traditional name from Blighty....I have no leaning either way...there are examples to prove both points of view. Its a subject, I have no hard and fast opinions on, I am fairly relaxed in what we are already doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villabromsgrove Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 I don't mind whether we sign homegrown or foreign players, but I do believe that a player like ESR will hit the ground running at Villa quicker than a player like Alvarez for example. I don't know whether Julian speaks fluent English, but I do know that a few of the promising young players we've bought in from abroad previously have struggled to settle or even understand what's being said on the pitch during matches. That has to subtract from a player's ability to hit his full potential within a short time. We need to sign players who are ready to perform at 100% now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, TRO said: Yes, I certainly do.....and I have no hang ups, of buying players from abroad, but I am equally supportive of the clubs view too and it makes sense to me. The pursuit and development of Home grown Talent is one I fully support and the clubs approach to it has been staggeringly good. However, I am not going to go overboard either on the notion, that their technical abilities are something we can't breed at home and in doing so, help to engender a loyalty of much stronger proportions...as we experience with Jack( hope that don't come home to bite me) I also think there has been rakes of players from abroad, that have been no better than what we have and in some cases stifled the homegrown opportunities. I know it will never be admitted, but a foreign name, will regularly raise hopes against a good old traditional name from Blighty....I have no leaning either way...there are examples to prove both points of view. Its a subject, I have no hard and fast opinions on, I am fairly relaxed in what we are already doing. It all boils down the original point, as long as they’re good enough it doesn’t matter where they come from. An interesting topic though… At the very least, there is better value out there than from home or from buying within the same league. Imo at least. There shouldn’t be such a fear factor related to that. Tbh, blanket statements have no relevance or accuracy. It’s really a case by case basis. Up to the well paid and well qualified to make those judgements… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, Jas10 said: Do you not think that the influx of foreign talent has inspired and improved British players? Yes the top end foreign talent but there has been more dross coming in foreign talent. We have had some of the best come in from Henry to Cantona to VVD and KDB but there has been so many failures, dross and players that just havent made it. Some players that have looked great in different leagues but come to the PL and just cant play our style high intensity football or adapt to life here that they fail. So while I agree we can all name loads of successes we can also name loads that havent. Buying foreign talent comes with massive risk, the more elements that you add to it from language, age, culture, distance from home, level of football and style of football and even then there are more. So yes foreign players have added a new dimension to British football but there are also so many failures along the way and more and more every season hence why PL experience adds such a premium to prices and are worth it. For me we are at such a critical point in our development that to invest so much into foreign talent is foolish. We need to establish ourselves and then we can take more risk in that direction. If we underperform this season we likely lose Grealish next summer and maybe some others and Smith may lose his job. I'd rather buy less players and focus on PL quality that we know are less risk but will definitely add something now almost definitely than cheaper abroad, high risk that maybe a success but may not or at least may not in the near future. Scouting and analysis only take you so far, you never know if somebody will adapt on all the different levels, if anybody could then there wouldnt be the premium on PL players that there is. We have one of the best recruitment teams from what I've heard so whatever they choose I understand and I can understand why their first port of call are players with PL experience because of the risks (which I know you dont fully agree with) associated with buying foreign talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 15 minutes ago, WHY said: Foreign talent has been around for 30 years now and I don’t think it’s had as much influence as some would believe. Could argue it’s more likely held a lot of players back. Personally think grassroots football has had more impact on British players. The coaching, set ups and quality of academies is light years ahead of what it was 25 years ago. Technically home grown players are now on a par with their European counterparts. We are now starting to see the benefit of the restructuring of grassroots football and will continue to reap the benefits for years to come. It’s a testament to all the hard work that is put in by everyone at that level. Yep I forgot to add this to my comment. Foreign dross has probably held back and lost maybe some young talent that maybe would've developed later as we know happens in the PL from Vardy and Mings to many other who fortunately still come through. Maybe cream does rise to the top but sometimes they dont get the chance. I think our grassroots football has really improved and I do think some foreign football education has improved elements of our game but our game is still the high intensity football that means it is probably the most watched and varied football in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 6 minutes ago, Jas10 said: It all boils down the original point, as long as they’re good enough it doesn’t matter where they come from. I dont agree, they maybe good enough but not for the style of football we play. Not every great talent is suited to playing in the PL compared to European football. 7 minutes ago, Jas10 said: At the very least, there is better value out there than from home or from buying within the same league. Yes if you get it right but the reason for the PL premium is that the risk on foreign players is very high of them succeeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post YLN Posted July 9, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 9, 2021 My interest in reading news on the potential ESR signing is high. My interest in reading what is being discussed in this thread is zero 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 14 minutes ago, nick76 said: Yes the top end foreign talent but there has been more dross coming in foreign talent. We have had some of the best come in from Henry to Cantona to VVD and KDB but there has been so many failures, dross and players that just havent made it. Some players that have looked great in different leagues but come to the PL and just cant play our style high intensity football or adapt to life here that they fail. So while I agree we can all name loads of successes we can also name loads that havent. Buying foreign talent comes with massive risk, the more elements that you add to it from language, age, culture, distance from home, level of football and style of football and even then there are more. So yes foreign players have added a new dimension to British football but there are also so many failures along the way and more and more every season hence why PL experience adds such a premium to prices and are worth it. For me we are at such a critical point in our development that to invest so much into foreign talent is foolish. We need to establish ourselves and then we can take more risk in that direction. If we underperform this season we likely lose Grealish next summer and maybe some others and Smith may lose his job. I'd rather buy less players and focus on PL quality that we know are less risk but will definitely add something now almost definitely than cheaper abroad, high risk that maybe a success but may not or at least may not in the near future. Scouting and analysis only take you so far, you never know if somebody will adapt on all the different levels, if anybody could then there wouldnt be the premium on PL players that there is. We have one of the best recruitment teams from what I've heard so whatever they choose I understand and I can understand why their first port of call are players with PL experience because of the risks (which I know you dont fully agree with) associated with buying foreign talent. Much of what you say I don’t necessarily disagree with but I think it’s unfair to criticise or point out “foreign dross” when there is and has been a hell of a lot of “British dross” too. Scouting and research is very important. Getting to know a bit about the player or finding out about his background and actually seeing him in action too. Again, blanket statements don’t apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, YLN said: My interest in reading news on the potential ESR signing is high. My interest in reading what is being discussed in this thread is zero Apologies. I will desist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROTTERDAM1982 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 If we don't get ESR, then i would hang on and get Eze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Silvers Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 8 minutes ago, YLN said: My interest in reading news on the potential ESR signing is high. My interest in reading what is being discussed in this thread is zero Very interesting 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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