The Next Level

[StewieGriffin]

One of the easiest ways to answer this question (not necessarily the best...) is to flip it on its head a little...

"How many of our squad would get into the current top 4/6 squads?" (Note squads, not starting XI)

Id say Martinez, Mings, Luiz and Grealish, with the current form of Konsa, Targett, Cash, McGinn, Traore and Watkins making them viable squad options for the top clubs

The remainder would need to be replaced, on that basis.

It's about a squad, not XI players, and that is where we lag behind a little. Our first choice team has matched (at minimum) all the "big teams" we've played thus far, but our lack of options to rest and rotate is what we need to move forwards to that next level - we rely on too many players being fit to be at our current level.

Man City can afford to rest KDB,  Sterling etc because they have the options to do so. Man Utd have Greenwood, Rashford, Cavani and Martial who can play up front, so a lack of form/fitness can be accommodated. Spurs can rotate their midfield and 1/3 of the front 3. Chelsea have a billion players to pick from.

Edited January 27, 2021 by StewieGriffin

[maqroll]

The squad we have right now is good enough to be in 4th place in February if we win our games in hand, so we don't need a summer revolution.

LB, RB, CB, RW and a striker if they think Wesley won't cut it.

I'd hold onto Nakamba as backup for Luiz.

 

 

[KentVillan]

1 hour ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

No room for sentiment whatsoever.

Yes on his day he's a great player but he can be so inconsistent too which frustrates.

Sanson has CL experience recently and he is thought of as (in theory) a step-up in quality.

 

Totally missing the point.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t look to strengthen across the squad, including signing better players than McGinn. But the idea that McGinn himself isn’t good enough to be part of that journey to the top is just mental.

Valuing players who commit to the badge is not “sentiment”. It is essential to building a successful club.

Edit: put it this way, if Ron Saunders or Brian Clough were still around, they’d sign John McGinn, and they’d win stuff with John McGinn. Too many of these discussions just turn into people comparing FIFA / Football Manager stats, and not thinking about a team being bigger than the sum of its parts.

Edited January 27, 2021 by KentVillan

[OxfordVillan]

For me the next level is finding/signing the likes of your Mo Salah, Mane, Sterling, Aguero, etc. Players that come in and score the quantity of goals that those players have given their teams over 2 or 3 seasons. If we had a player or two posting the numbers of a Salah or Aguero then we’d be very close to top of the league right now. We might still get that with the players we already have here. Who’s to say that with a seasons experience under their belts, Watkins or Traore won’t go on to post 20+ goals in a season? Nothing is guaranteed in football, you could spend £60m+ on a player who ends up being distinctly average and not posting the numbers you’d hoped you were buying. But you need a regular match winner or two in your team to challenge for the trophies. In Grealish we already have a fantastic talent that every other club in the league would like, and I think he’s still got another level to go to. We’re close with our current starting 11, but you can’t stand still and admire yourself for one minute in this league, it’ll catch you out. 

[VillaChris]

1 hour ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

No room for sentiment whatsoever.

Yes on his day he's a great player but he can be so inconsistent too which frustrates.

Sanson has CL experience recently and he is thought of as (in theory) a step-up in quality.

 

There is still a place for SJM but I agree with that, his passing was pretty mediocre against Man. City.

Interesting to see if him and Mings are still indisputable undroppable players in 12 months time, I suspect they won't be but that's no bad thing as would mean we're bringing in excellent quality in those areas, I like the signing of Sanson so would imagine we'll look to being in similar type at CB in the summer once Engels is moved out.

[Sulberto21]

If the Luc Nilis we signed , signed for us today I believe we'd finish top 4. That's the type of legacy signing I think will get us to the 'next level'. We don't need to throw hundreds of millions to do it. We'll improve again next season.

[VillaChris]

11 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said:

If the Luc Nilis we signed , signed for us today I believe we'd finish top 4. That's the type of legacy signing I think will get us to the 'next level'. We don't need to throw hundreds of millions to do it. We'll improve again next season.

Honestly think someone like Dzeko would fit that bill so well even if it's just as last 20 minute sub.

Had it a while back with the 5 subs debate that people were moaning likes of Chelsea and Man. United could throw on a Giroud or Cavani to win them a game and we didn't have one....well let's sign one.

Can't remember the last sub option we actually had upfront who you felt you could put on with 15-20 minutes left and they'd score a crucial late winner. Perhaps Carew but I always thought he was far more effective starting games.

That's the next step for me. We've got a really good first 11 now when they're all fit but who do we have in the squad who could come off the bench and win us the game if we're 1-1 with Man. United or Chelsea after 75 minutes at VP later this season? Too often in the past we've hardly had anything so once the players get fatigued we're often clinging on for the point.

As good as Trez and El Ghazi have been this season I'm not sure they'll ever reach that level.

[MarkLillis]

29 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

put it this way, if Ron Saunders or Brian Clough were still around, they’d sign John McGinn, and they’d win stuff with John McGinn. Too many of these discussions just turn into people comparing FIFA / Football Manager stats, and not thinking about a team being bigger than the sum of its parts

Cant agree more.

As a player (parks level lol) I loved it when we had a personality and player of McGinn's style in our side. Successful sides always need characters like this.

McGinn comes with a massive plus to that as he is also a very good player.

[nick76]

44 minutes ago, maqroll said:

The squad we have right now is good enough to be in 4th place in February if we win our games in hand, so we don't need a summer revolution.

LB, RB, CB, RW and a striker if they think Wesley won't cut it.

I'd hold onto Nakamba as backup for Luiz.

 

 

Still think we need another striker even if Wes does cut it. 

Not convinced with Davis so having Watkins, Wes, "Another", and then Barry coming through the ranks. 

I understand the Traore back up argument but I think even when Wes is back we are missing an option upfront and yes I know only 1 central striker can play at a time in our current formation but I think we are a central striker light.  We dont need a player like Watkins or a player like Wes we need something different in case we need to try something different in a game for whatever reason. 

We play a certain way and 90% of the time I dont want that to change but just occasionally we may need to because it isnt working in a game.

I'm going to mention a name and I'm not advocating this player but the style of player but imagine having the option of Giroud, just something different if we need it.

[Zhan_Zhuang]

3 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Totally missing the point.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t look to strengthen across the squad, including signing better players than McGinn. But the idea that McGinn himself isn’t good enough to be part of that journey to the top is just mental.

Valuing players who commit to the badge is not “sentiment”. It is essential to building a successful club.

Edit: put it this way, if Ron Saunders or Brian Clough were still around, they’d sign John McGinn, and they’d win stuff with John McGinn. Too many of these discussions just turn into people comparing FIFA / Football Manager stats, and not thinking about a team being bigger than the sum of its parts.

Nah I got your point thank you very much, I merely disagree as is my right.  

You think McGinn is good enough, I don't. Your point is it is mental to think otherwise yet he is quite clearly inconsistent, often caught in possession way too much and is a little slow. He's been caught out twice against Burnley already in the first half for holding on to the ball too long. OK fair enough I acknowledge he did play a lovely pass to Watkins. I don't dislike him, I'd be delighted if he smashes in a hat-trick second-half!

If we finish top six for arguments sake the six teams above us would have no place for McGinn nor any need. There are always better players, that is my point. McGinn can be part of the journey, I did not say we should be casting him aside at all.

Sanson is direct competition for him if you listened to French football experts. He seems to be like McGinn but quicker according to OM fans, if he's as good as McGinn but quicker then great an upgrade!

There is no sentiment as nobody is guaranteed a place, it's quite simple. Otherwise you stand still if you owe players a place.

[Zhan_Zhuang]

3 hours ago, VillaChris said:

There is still a place for SJM but I agree with that, his passing was pretty mediocre against Man. City.

Interesting to see if him and Mings are still indisputable undroppable players in 12 months time, I suspect they won't be but that's no bad thing as would mean we're bringing in excellent quality in those areas, I like the signing of Sanson so would imagine we'll look to being in similar type at CB in the summer once Engels is moved out.

Exactly my point, I'm not advocating selling McGinn at all he is an important player.

[useless]

One win in six, or one win in five in the league, eleven points from the last ten games.

Before we think about 'the next level' we probably should just concentrate on establishing ourselves as a midtable team first and not going backwards.

[Tayls]

5 minutes ago, useless said:

One win in six, or one win in five in the league, eleven points from the last ten games.

Before we think about 'the next level' we probably should just concentrate on establishing ourselves as a midtable team first and not going backwards.

Was about to say, should probably close this really as we have a very long way to go before we think about the next level, based on tonight’s showing. Still, 11 points needed to achieve safety. Hopefully we can get there. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Tayls

[VillaChris]

Think today was good example of lacking some really good options off the bench to scare teams. Last thing Burnley would've wanted getting back to 2-2 is to look over and see us putting a really good impact striker on to pen them back.

With respect Davis, Trez and AEG in a situaiton where we're losing the game isn't exactly going to frighten a team sitting back too much.

Thought Vydra with his willing runs make a huge difference and with respect there's many strikers better than him in world football kicking their heels hardly playing so up to us to get one of them in next 5 days as giving Davis 3 minutes was laughable.

[dudevillaisnice]

8 minutes ago, useless said:

One win in six, or one win in five in the league, eleven points from the last ten games.

Before we think about 'the next level' we probably should just concentrate on establishing ourselves as a midtable team first and not going backwards.

Yup - today is a reality check. 

[VillaChris]

8 minutes ago, dudevillaisnice said:

Yup - today is a reality check. 

There does seem to be a bizarre notion on here when we win a few that suddenly there is no player capable in world football of displacing any of our first 11, you've seen it in last few days with mild panic from some that McGinn may not be starting 35 games a season in near future with Sanson coming in.

Our players are good but more competition is always welcome, it's what serious progressive clubs do especially if we're only going to finish 9th or 10th this season.

Would've taken that in September no problem but given how we've played it's not unreasonable to expect a little bit.

Still results like this can happen from time to time. We had a worse one at West Ham given we were even more dominant and bounced back really well from that so hopefully same here, Southampton is big one now and a completely different test to what Burnley do and we're due a really good performance v them.

[thabucks]

I’m advocating or calling for change but in reality Smith will need replacing for us to take the next step up IMO. The club should forever be evolving with little time for misplaced sentiment. He has saved us and given us an identity and hope it continues. There will come a difficult time in seasons to come  when it will be a case of stick or twist ... 

Ps : this is not based on tonight’s result BTW . As  @KentVillan points out below, many factors were at play for tonight’s result and performance.

I hope Smith stays around for a long time. I was doubting him last season - this season he has really shown what a good manger he is. 
He will be replaced sometime - when he has taken us as far as he can and I think our next manager will be a great one and take us to the next level, at the time and build upon the foundations and hopeful successes of Smith. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by thabucks

[KentVillan]

Lol at the kneejerk reactions in this thread.

We've just recovered from half the team having Covid-19 and the whole squad being in isolation.

Now all the players and the manager need replacing. 

[Indigo]

One win in six where children played in one game and three were away to Champions League sides puts things in context a bit better. We battered Burnley and somehow managed to throw it away too which is generally the manner in which better sides lose to teams like that.

Confident in saying that we're in the mix of teams that could finish anywhere from 7th-13th. The margins are fine in that area of the table and in our case I still think it's just depth that really hinders us from potentially solidifying ourselves at the upper end of that scale. Willing to be more than patient with Sanson but if all goes well that could be a big addition for us in terms of adding energy in the middle of the park in games like today where the momentum shifts the other way.

[KentVillan]

41 minutes ago, thabucks said:

I’m advocating or calling for change but in reality Smith will need replacing for us to take the next step up IMO. The club should forever be evolving with little time for misplaced sentiment. He has saved us and given us an identity and hope it continues. There will come a difficult time in seasons to come  when it will be a case of stick or twist ... 

Ps : this is not based on tonight’s result BTW . As  @KentVillan points out below, many factors were at play for tonight’s result and performance.

I hope Smith stays around for a long time. I was doubting him last season - this season he has really shown what a good manger he is. 
He will be replaced sometime, when he has taken us as far as he can. I think our next manager will be a great and take us to a higher next level based on Smith’s foundations and hopeful successes... 

You might be right re Smith, but I'd like him to have as much time as possible to prove himself first before we do that.

Smith has taken half these players from Championship obscurity to becoming established PL regulars. It's not like he's just a chequebook manager.