Bertrand Traoré

[Tom13]

6 hours ago, Anything11 said:

I like Bertie but he is a luxury player for the most part 

Bailey as frustrating as he is has shown he can be an important part of the structure of how Villa play including contributing important goals and assists. Something Bertie has yet to solidify.

He may well do so and displace Bailey but this idea that he is better is far from the mark at this stage IMO

 

If he was to rise to that level it would strengthen the squad immensely 

Who's better is another argument. I was replying to a post about who's more clinical. I'm not sure Bailey can be classed as an important part of our structure either. Unai obviously relies on him more, which you can't argue with, but he is still frustrating and careless with the ball.

[MrBlack]

It's madness to suggest Bailey is more clinical than Traoré.  He scores and creates less.

Over their career Traore has demonstrated more defensive actions than Bailey also, signifcantly so. They've played a similar number of minutes over their careers also. It's amazing how similar their total minutes and matches played are at this stage, and traore is better for everything except progression.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/player_comparison.cgi?player_id2=3a233281&player_id1=c47541e0&p2yrfrom=&sum=0&request=1&show_form=1&comp_type=by_type&dom_lg=1

The key thing is that Bailey's xg are higher than Traore, but his goals scored is lower. If that's not an indication that Traore's more clinical I'm not sure what is.

It's difficult to compare their recent times (last 2 seasons) because Traoré has had so few minutes lately. I assume Emery sees what he sees in training and makes his call based on that.  I suspect he values Bailey's progression ability higher,  its definitely an underrated stat.

Edited August 26, 2023 by MrBlack

[Jas10]

As much as some of us like Berty… it’s clear to see that Unai prefers Bailey and with Moussa here and if he continues to improve… it only enhances his chances of being a regular in the side…

Berty simply doesn’t have that “status” but… I’ll never write him off… but he needs a good run of fitness and form… may not get the opportunity though, has to hugely impress in training for a start… maybe we can get lockdown Berty back… would only help us… and Unai could make him better and more disciplined.

At the very least… he’s a useful squad member who can make an impact for us - he did it last season, when he wasn’t anywhere near his best too…

[lexicon]

37 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

It's madness to suggest Bailey is more clinical than Traoré.  He scores and creates less.

Over their career Traore has demonstrated more defensive actions than Bailey also, signifcantly so. They've played a similar number of minutes over their careers also. It's amazing how similar their total minutes and matches played are at this stage, and traore is better for everything except progression.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/player_comparison.cgi?player_id2=3a233281&player_id1=c47541e0&p2yrfrom=&sum=0&request=1&show_form=1&comp_type=by_type&dom_lg=1

The key thing is that Bailey's xg are higher than Traore, but his goals scored is lower. If that's not an indication that Traore's more clinical I'm not sure what is.

It's difficult to compare their recent times (last 2 seasons) because Traoré has had so few minutes lately. I assume Emery sees what he sees in training and makes his call based on that.  I suspect he values Bailey's progression ability higher,  its definitely an underrated stat.

The goal+assist per 90 is 0.52 for Traore and 0.51 for Bailey, so basically exactly the same. Bailey also has a better SCA (3.95 to 3.65).

It should also be noted that Traore's stats here are padded from being in the French and Dutch leagues, while Bailey's are almost all from Germany and England.  

[MrBlack]

8 hours ago, lexicon said:

The goal+assist per 90 is 0.52 for Traore and 0.51 for Bailey, so basically exactly the same. Bailey also has a better SCA (3.95 to 3.65).

It should also be noted that Traore's stats here are padded from being in the French and Dutch leagues, while Bailey's are almost all from Germany and England.  

Fine, but in terms of goals per 90, Traore leads, despite having a lower xG stat. This is what I would say makes him clearly more clinical.

The rest, as you say, is fairly even, and even though Traore generally leads he has played in objectively weaker leagues. Bailey's SCA may be higher, but Traore leads on goal creating actions,  again suggesting he is providing the ball on a plate more than Bailey does. 

There isn't a great deal between them over their careers though and taking into account the opponents difficulty level maybe its a pretty even call.

And ultimately, like I said, Bailey gets the nod every time if he's fit so Emery is seeing something in him that suits our game more. I'm not going to argue with the results we've seen. 

But I am more than happy to be able to bring Traore on if we need to change a game or give Bailey a rest. Ideally, we'll sign someone better than them both, although if Bailey maintains the form from the last game good luck to them getting in the team!

[lexicon]

12 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Fine, but in terms of goals per 90, Traore leads, despite having a lower xG stat. This is what I would say makes him clearly more clinical.

The rest, as you say, is fairly even, and even though Traore generally leads he has played in objectively weaker leagues. Bailey's SCA may be higher, but Traore leads on goal creating actions,  again suggesting he is providing the ball on a plate more than Bailey does. 

There isn't a great deal between them over their careers though and taking into account the opponents difficulty level maybe its a pretty even call.

And ultimately, like I said, Bailey gets the nod every time if he's fit so Emery is seeing something in him that suits our game more. I'm not going to argue with the results we've seen. 

But I am more than happy to be able to bring Traore on if we need to change a game or give Bailey a rest. Ideally, we'll sign someone better than them both, although if Bailey maintains the form from the last game good luck to them getting in the team!

 

I've no dog in this fight tbh, I like having both as options and would be happy to keep them.

[VillaChris]

Traore proved his worth in April. That Leicester goal was special and was a huge three points in the end to keep the winning run going. When you're making europe by a point you need these players in squad who can come in on occasions and hit winners from very little.

He can do the same again at some point this season.

No point selling him as we won't get much of a fee and we're already an attacker down having lost Buendia for the season so keep until January and perhaps make him available then as think he'll only have six months left at that point.

[Zatman]

Have to say I have no idea why he played pretty much as a right wing back when he came on unless something Unai has been working on

Interesting he got on before a few other players, maybe has a long term future here

[Anything11]

48 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Have to say I have no idea why he played pretty much as a right wing back when he came on unless something Unai has been working on

Interesting he got on before a few other players, maybe has a long term future here

I think he just ended up there as we defended deeper

he was playing the same bailey/cash role

[VillaChris]

55 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Have to say I have no idea why he played pretty much as a right wing back when he came on unless something Unai has been working on

Interesting he got on before a few other players, maybe has a long term future here

Could be wrong but didn't he play wing back at some point for Ajax or Lyon?

He does have experience of that role albeit it will be last resort or just seeing out games if he's deployed there.

[sidcow]

You can spend all day comparing stats, goals, assists, xG, magic moments. Compare whatever you like but Emery without any question prefers Bailey. 

For whatever reason Traore does look better for me in cameo roles.. Whenever he's had a few games he doesn't seem to quite take his chance. 

I think what Emery looks at is beyond Goals and assists. He'll have the same stats everyone here has and will know they're equally matched from that point of view. 

I suspect he looks at things like how they help or hinder when we're in transition. How much ball retention each offers. There's something he sees in Bailey that he doesn't see in Traore. 

I reckon it's a bit like the point of looking at last seasons goals and just how much involvement Bailey had in them, maybe not as the scorer or the assist, but some contribution in the build up, the penultimate pass, the ball carry.  Everyone watches that montage and is suprise by his heavy involvement possibly precisely because it isn't the actual goal or final assist, so gets lost in the noise of the stat boys. 

He obviously does whatever it is Emery wants him to do in all that master planning, all the video debriefs.  He's got a definite plan for every position and Bailey clearly does whatever it is he seems. Traore is almost certainly more of a losses cannon so won't fit with Emery. 

Yet Emery is not a system for systems sake manager and obviously still sees a role for a maverick, but that role is not as a starter. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by sidcow

[CVByrne]

If he is staying (and there are no links of him moving) I wonder are we going to let him run down his contract. I think maybe Buendia being injured might have altered our plans. 

[sidcow]

Thinking about it, it really speaks for itself. If goals and assists are almost equal then what do you look at next? 

I would say who is less likely to hit a mental aimless back pass. Who is less likely to mysteriously run the ball out of play inexplicably. 

Well all other things being equal you're going to pick the guy with less mistakes in him.. If the attacking benefits are wafer thin between them it's the only logical answer isn't it? 

Edited August 28, 2023 by sidcow

[Panto_Villan]

15 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Thinking about it, it really speaks for itself. If goals and assists are almost equal then what do you look at next? 

I would say who is less likely to hit a mental aimless back pass. Who is less likely to mysteriously run the ball out of play inexplicably. 

Well all other things being equal you're going to pick the guy with less mistakes in him.. If the attacking benefits are wafer thin between them it's the only logical answer isn't it? 

One of the nice things about Traoré is that I have no idea what his dad’s opinions are on anything.

[DJBOB]

He's a bit of a wild card in a team full of hard workers. Unai knows the importance of variety. You spend all match battling against Ollie, McGinn, soon to be back JJ, Diaby buzzing around you and Zaniolo trying to power through.

Then comes this lanky Burkinabe coming at you, no one knows what he's going to do. Maybe he'll pass it as soon as he touches it. Maybe he fakes a shot 3 times in the same direction. Does he go forward or backwards? Why is he so slow without the ball but then so fast with it?

Perhaps will never be a regular impact player, but Unai has talked before about purposefully using players as a subsitute. Chukwueze at Villareal was almost predominantly a substitute/impact player. He only started half their games until last year.

Instead of the like for like substitution (El Ghazi on for Trezegeut or the reverse) - bringing on Bertie really can change a game - for better or for worse.

 

[Woody1000]

If there’s no takers for him, then it makes sense for us to try and at least make use of him. He’s a decent player for ECL games if nothing else.

[TheMelvillan]

Bertie is gonna have some fun against Hibs isn't he? Reckon he will either score a hattrick or get scythed down in the twelfth minute for showboating Harlem Globetrotters style

[gwi1890]

Think he’s done more than enough to suggest he can play a role here, think Emery sees him more as a winger than a second striker like Diaby and Zaniolo, perfect option to bring off the bench and play cup competitions.

[villan95]

Just realised he's out of contract at the end of this season.

[ender4]

15 minutes ago, villan95 said:

Just realised he's out of contract at the end of this season.

Sigh him up!

Seriously though, that makes sense then to keep him for this season and then get someone better than him next summer.