Relegation thread

[sne]

We conceded 12 goals in 11 (league) games under RDM before he got the sack, an average of 1.1 per game.

Under Bruce that season we conceded 36 goals in 35 games averaging 1.03 per game. No doubt it's slightly better but it's hardly stopping us hemorrhaging goals.

What changed that season when it came to conceding goals was that we conceded them earlier in the games under Bruce compared to a lot of late goals under RDM.

The idea that he shored up the defense compared to RDM is wildly exaggerated. If anything he improved our attack, if only slightly.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, LondonVillian said:

One win and suddenly everyones sucking off ds - even if we stay up he has to go

but you have to give credit where its due ......its just sad that some can't balance out a bit of criticism when its due....its like its sacrosanct, to call a game like you see it, because it goes against a general view.

but remember 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Edited July 24, 2020 by TRO

[pintpotvilla]

19 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Yeah obviously we weren't looking to go into the season purely trying to survive, but whichever way you slice it, the first season up for a newly promoted team, especially the playoff winning on is always measured by survival. We gave it a good go, from the very first game against Spurs. You can't accuse us of going into games trying to grind out draws to stay in the league. We went for it, but for a combination of naivety (both from the coaching and playing staff), inexperience and general lack of quality, we were punished for it in this very demanding league. If we stay up, we'll be a much stronger outfit because of all that. We already look more wily and street smart since the restart. When you add the cup run to that, overall it's been decent. Haven't pulled up trees, but decent.

This is one of the most sensible posts I've seen

[TRO]

19 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

You'd have continued to say what you have all season and issued a battering of the manager who won promotion and is competing in the division above with a squad that isn't good enough.

Our man

What when I said you wouldn't be happy with survival? You literally just said this...

Staying up with this squad is an incredible achievement. Doesn't mean it's the end game or final target.

Surely you agree that we need about five or six new starting players this summer? We playing in the PL without a PL squad!

I am frightened to agree with you, just in case I get called out about not agreeing with you in the past....you see once i have made my case thats it tablets of stone.

 

[Tomaszk]

7 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am frightened to agree with you, just in case I get called out about not agreeing with you in the past....you see once i have made my case thats it tablets of stone.

As has been explained by others, your consistent logic of defending some and criticising others over similar performances is tricky to follow. You think it's fair, that's fine, your opinion, do what you want with it.

I am interested in your thoughts though...IMO we need about five or six new starting players this summer. That in itself tells you how poor the squad is.

I hope we're scrapping over PL performances not Championship ones next season.

[Rob182]

39 minutes ago, TRO said:

Rob....thats true and its idealistic, but that what we have to aim for.

In contrast, we have signed far too many that haven't worked out....I am talking in years now, not the odd season ad that covers a multitude of personnel, not just one.

Some players, do take longer than others, true, but equally that does not apply to them all......and also some clubs get the best out of players, when other clubs fail.....we all know the examples out there.

Personally, I would not inc Targett, but that just me.....we all have the players we rate and don't rate so much.

For me it is crystal clear that some clubs have a better rate of players they get something out of than others.....we all know some make it some don't......but it is the ratio of good to bad which is the crucial bit.

IMO Martin O'Neill signed c 38 players in his time with us and only a handful was worth writing home about.....but he still wanted more money.

and finally, you are right its called Hindsight and it is an exact science......but these scouts are employed with an ability to spot talent and visualize their potential.....some are very good, who would have spotted Vardy or David Platt, or Mahrez the trick is to get some who are good and can do that.....sadly to date we have been lacking.

 

I think it’s only fair to judge our signings under the current set-up though.

Some of the dross we signed under Randy/ Dr Tony/ Di Matteo and Bruce shouldn’t be part of any “we’ve done this for too long” argument.

Since the new owners came in, I’d say we’ve definitely signed more good players than dud players.

One prime example that sticks on my mind: In January 2019 we were mid-table and the recruitment team identified Mings as a good loan. The majority of football fans thought we were buying an injury prone left-back (as that’s where Mings had played for a lot of his career). Months later and it turned out to be a complete master stroke. Admittedly Bournemouth had us over a barrel on the price, but we took that punt on him and he’s now become an established Prem defender and international.

This summer’s transfers were never going to be easy, simply for the fact that we had to build a squad and therefore the average money per player was never going to buy us enough proven Prem quality across all positions.

I’d love to see another club attempt the same type of rebuild (maybe we’ll see Baggies’/Leeds’ attempt) and see how many signings they get right or wrong.

I looked over some of Bournemouth’s signings from the summer of 2018, and they signed 2-3 players that were £15-25m each and all flopped. One of them was injured for the whole season. The other (a winger/striker) played most of the season and scored one goal I think. All this is from memory, but it shows that you can’t even guarantee Prem quality when you spend DOUBLE what we averaged across our ‘per player’ spend, so to get at least 50% of the signings right (which, imo, we have), is still good. And the ones that haven’t worked out are all still young enough to improve in time. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Rob182

[Keyblade]

47 minutes ago, TRO said:

you see you are wrong on all counts......It depends where from, you want to scrutinise my posts....something I never do myself, so I am going off memory, but because my sentiments are honest, I don't have to.

However, I will say this to you and have done so many times on here, that we all reserve the right to change our opinion and in 2 years, even more so......now those won't be posts you will pick out for me, because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Lets go back to your laborious point.....and I have explained my position on Steve Bruce so,so,so many times, but it appears it falls on deaf ears.

Steve Bruce...(I will try and be brief) from my point of view...and not go in to detail, as I'm bored of it.

When he came to us I was desperate to stop the Haemorraghing of goals, It was like floor with a hole in it, for me..... he did that relatively quickly and we ended up finishing 13th, not great, but the thing stopped bleeding, the football was not great, but with some new players I was hoping it would get better on the eye......next season we challenged for the title, we won 24 games in that season and just failed in the wembley final, the football for me was functional, not attractive, but in the light of the previous regime of conceding goals, I accepted it.....Then come armageddon and the true light of what had been going on, the Owner fled and left a kid in charge, who could at least speak the language......Steve was given a reprieve ( not much choice, i would imagine) but the squad was decimated for all the reasons we know.....He limped in to the new season accruing 3 wins in 11 Games.....It could not continue and there was no sign of it changing.

Those last few games was not a pretty sight.....I did not turn on the man, but the manager, could not continue and I said so on here, if you care to check carefully.....I thought and still do the cabbage, was in poor taste and hope it doesn't happen again to any of our managers, but I accepted he had to go, when he did and the club did the right thing and I said so then.

Now I know, that you will refuse to accept that, but that is the crux of it from me.

 

I'm not talking about the beginning or even the middle of Steve Bruce's reign where the majority of fans were happy with the job he was doing. I'm talking about 2 years into it, when we failed to go up and many people were calling for him to be replaced. I'm only going off memory too but correct me if I'm wrong, you weren't among those who wanted him replaced? 

Mind you this was the Championship, and we failed to get out of it at that point, so not wanting to sack the man who failed to win promotion to the Premier League despite being given 2 years and untold millions to build a squad that trounced the league sounds like the shaking hands with mediocrity you are currently going on about, and it's ironic because we are now a Premier League outfit, and the mediocrity you're talking about is staying in the PL. It doesn't make any sense. 

I understand opinions can be revised, but we are only 1 manager and 1 season removed from the time in question. Not only that, but the opinion in question here isn't whether Dean Smith is a good manager but about what is a good achievement for Aston Villa at this point in time. I don't understand how we can make such a huge jump from "just challenging for promotion in the Championship" to "should be aiming higher than being safe in the PL" in just 1/2 seasons. If I'm being honest, I think it's just that Dean Smith isn't your cup of tea in terms of managerial style which you've alluded to before, which is fine that's your opinion. But it makes it exhausting talking about the state of affairs of Aston Villa Football Club where your opinion on where we should be at any given time fluctuates depending on whether or not you like the bloke in charge.

[Ponky]

So the key question is - if we do manage to stay up, will we still be considered as having done a Fulham? 

[VillaCas]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Its not a strawman anything, its my opinion of fan expectation.

but we have been like this for c 10 years...flirting with issues and calling it one of those things, no its not one of those things....its been poor on the whole.

If you find solace in the mitigation you claim, good for you.....I don't.

Tuesday night we played an Arsenal team awash with expensive signings, something I am told we can't compare ours with....they have just beat the leagues 2 top teams, confidence, could not be higher and they mustered 4 yellows to indicate their intensity.

The crux is....we made it difficult for Arsenal......something we have struggled to do all season, make it difficult for the opponent.

We won, because we found some form and stuck at it, we showed conviction and refused to be bullied for once......sure we are inconsistent and had we played like that for most of the season, we would have finished where i thought we would c 14/15th.

You say you are not pleased that we are limping to 17th, but at the same time, fail to make observations of why we have, only to blame the amount of new signings.....you accepted that from the get go, you said so yourself... that's flirting with relegation, in anyones language.

We have improved our defensive capability generally since lockdown.....that is management getting it right. I understand your claim of so many new players, but I don't buy that as the sole reason for our 21 defeats....I think it is accepting an excuse and I am not expecting you to agree, by the way.

I accept fans have varying degree's of expectation, and I also agree that it is their prerogative.....but those who have a low one, have no right to the moral high ground and anymore than those with a high one, might get frustrated.

Personally.....I will take the frustration and look to drive the team on.

Hope we can produce a similar Result and performance on Sunday.

UTV

It is you who seems to be claiming the high ground. I don’t like 21 defeats any more than you do, I would like every performance (and result) to be like the one against Arsenal but I’m realistic enough to realise that given our trajectory that was not possible this season

Your version of the better fan argument “you might be happy to accept that, but I have higher standards” is nonsense. I didn’t “accept flirting with relegation from the get go”, I realised from watching many years of football that a good but novice manager combined with a fledgling squad still in transition would do very well to get to 17th - most clubs who come up from the playoffs do not achieve that

Constantly moaning is easy. It’s odd that you were on the other side of the argument when Bruce was here achieving not a fraction of what Smith has already delivered. 

[sheepyvillian]

7 minutes ago, Ponky said:

So the key question is - if we do manage to stay up, will we still be considered as having done a Fulham? 

How can we? 

[Rob182]

15 minutes ago, Ponky said:

So the key question is - if we do manage to stay up, will we still be considered as having done a Fulham? 

I don’t think so. I think spending £100m+ and succeeding will be then known as doing a Villa

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

It's literally the biggest match of our season, if they don't intend to leave it all on the pitch then what more is there to say?

I'm cautiously optimistic.

Just mental that this one result could totally transform our outlook, transfer business, prospects and potentially our future. For better or worse.

[Keyblade]

Just now, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

It's literally the biggest match of our season, if they don't intend to leave it all on the pitch then what more is there to say?

I'm cautiously optimistic.

Just mental that this one result could totally transform our outlook, transfer business, prospects and potentially our future. For better or worse.

Just like the playoff final then. That was more crucial to be honest. We could have faced financial ruin apparently.

[Tomaszk]

31 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

It's literally the biggest match of our season, if they don't intend to leave it all on the pitch then what more is there to say?

I'm cautiously optimistic.

Just mental that this one result could totally transform our outlook, transfer business, prospects and potentially our future. For better or worse.

Almost exactly 14 months on from another.

Seriously though...this does feel like it could be the end of a 8/9/10 year holiday as a failing club.

We're so close.

[Wainy316]

3 seasons running now ending with the most nerve racking, gut wrenching of games.

I miss mid table mediocrity.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Wainy316

[Hobbit Feet]

7 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

3 seasons running now ending with the most nerve racking, gut wrenching of games.

I miss mid table mediocrity.

Be careful what you wish for skelator.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Hobbit Feet

[Keyblade]

3 minutes ago, Hobbit Feet said:

Be careful what you wish for skelator.

Yeah I personally like it like this. You can always look back on these times. Won't really remember that time you finished 15th 5 years ago.

[deeps]

8 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Yeah I personally like it like this. You can always look back on these times. Won't really remember that time you finished 15th 5 years ago.

Depends on the outcome. 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Keyblade said:

I'm not talking about the beginning or even the middle of Steve Bruce's reign where the majority of fans were happy with the job he was doing. I'm talking about 2 years into it, when we failed to go up and many people were calling for him to be replaced. I'm only going off memory too but correct me if I'm wrong, you weren't among those who wanted him replaced? 

Mind you this was the Championship, and we failed to get out of it at that point, so not wanting to sack the man who failed to win promotion to the Premier League despite being given 2 years and untold millions to build a squad that trounced the league sounds like the shaking hands with mediocrity you are currently going on about, and it's ironic because we are now a Premier League outfit, and the mediocrity you're talking about is staying in the PL. It doesn't make any sense. 

I understand opinions can be revised, but we are only 1 manager and 1 season removed from the time in question. Not only that, but the opinion in question here isn't whether Dean Smith is a good manager but about what is a good achievement for Aston Villa at this point in time. I don't understand how we can make such a huge jump from "just challenging for promotion in the Championship" to "should be aiming higher than being safe in the PL" in just 1/2 seasons. If I'm being honest, I think it's just that Dean Smith isn't your cup of tea in terms of managerial style which you've alluded to before, which is fine that's your opinion. But it makes it exhausting talking about the state of affairs of Aston Villa Football Club where your opinion on where we should be at any given time fluctuates depending on whether or not you like the bloke in charge.

I have made it clear, i want Dean Smith to succeed.....if you can't reconcile that with, i have doubts about a manager that presides over 21 defeats in a season, I don't know what else to say........you can like some things about a person and not others, but you seem to fail to pick up on that.

I don't dislike Dean Smith.....do you get that?......but I equally don't like 21 defeats either....thats not my cup of tea.

i don't really understand your final paragraph....."where we should be"..... I don't dislike Dean Smith.....but that does not mean, i can cut him the slack you do.....However, if he keeps up the results of the other night on a reasonably regular basis, i feel sure i could alter my view.

do you get that or do i have to keep repeating myself after posts in which i praised him.

Ps in fact someone wrote even when we do well, certain fans don't praise him.....I do and i get this nonsense.

pps there is a difference in commenting on a game and a season, views may differ.

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by TRO

[meregreen]

Check out Alex Ferguson’s early record at Utd. He was one game away from the sack. Sacked in the morning was being sung at him at every away ground they played at, including ours.They played Forest in the Cup and won. It was a catalyst, the whole mood at Utd changed. Yes, he was blessed with having the wherewithal to sign some top players and later to harvest the riches of Utds youth set up. But regardless of that, he overcame those early problems and gradually climbed the ladder to success. Now maybe Dean Smith won’t follow that path, maybe he’ll be dumped, as so many managers are these days, before he can really make his mark. But I for one, am prepared to give him longer than some seem prepared to give him. He took over a basket case of a club. We are battling to stay in a League few of us would even have believed we would have been competing in half way through last season. Keep the faith, UTV.