blandy Posted January 4, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 4, 2021 29 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: One thing Johnson and Starmer fully agree on is that you must never, ever be seen to be agreeing with teacher's unions. Even if you have to allow a pointless day of infections first, you can't agree with the unions It's kind of tangential, but they should be following the scientisticalists and medicals advice on this. It's kind of absolute, to me. If the Union opinion, or teacher opinion aligns with the medical/science man advice, then ...fine, but it's then their advice. Yes teachers and particularly head teachers have understanding of the constraints and situations in their schools and so on, but again those head teachers should have access to the science and medical data to inform their decisions. What we're talking about here (I think) is teachers Unions (rightly) worried about safety and about a lack of time and about a lack of training for doing testing - which should lead to "these things need sorting out" and Starmer (logically) should support resolution of those concerns. But on closing schools (or not) it shouldn't be the Union top knobs that are the factor, it should be the science. Politicians should not be the automatic followers of what a Union (or business leader or the CBI want (I'm not implying you're saying that). Because a Union calls for T4 schools to close for 2 weeks doesn't mean Starmer should support them. If the scientists do/did, then he should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 8 minutes ago, blandy said: It's kind of tangential, but they should be following the scientisticalists and medicals advice on this. It's kind of absolute, to me. If the Union opinion, or teacher opinion aligns with the medical/science man advice, then ...fine, but it's then their advice. Yes teachers and particularly head teachers have understanding of the constraints and situations in their schools and so on, but again those head teachers should have access to the science and medical data to inform their decisions. What we're talking about here (I think) is teachers Unions (rightly) worried about safety and about a lack of time and about a lack of training for doing testing - which should lead to "these things need sorting out" and Starmer (logically) should support resolution of those concerns. But on closing schools (or not) it shouldn't be the Union top knobs that are the factor, it should be the science. Politicians should not be the automatic followers of what a Union (or business leader or the CBI want (I'm not implying you're saying that). Because a Union calls for T4 schools to close for 2 weeks doesn't mean Starmer should support them. If the scientists do/did, then he should. I may be wrong, but weren't the scientists supporting this? Didn't they previously suggest that schools would have to close to get the r rate down. And the unions have requested the science to show why the government think that schools should remain open. I don't think the teaching unions have gone all militant. I think they've done very well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 36 minutes ago, Genie said: Is the feeling schools closed tomorrow, or shortly after parliament return? surely they won't lock down schools straight away? Announced at 8pm for the next morning? no time for parents to arrange childcare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 1 minute ago, ender4 said: surely they won't lock down schools straight away? Announced at 8pm for the next morning? no time for parents to arrange childcare. But if they don't, they're allowing another day for kids to spread it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 I expect it'll come in to place on Wednesday or Thursday. Anyone that can keep their kids home should do so. Once again the buffoon puts his stubbornness before the safety of the nation. Yesterday he said "Schools are safe" about 30 times on the Marr show. This kind of embarrassing and foreseeable climbdown ought to be enough to end a PM tbh. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekka Posted January 4, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted January 4, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ender4 said: surely they won't lock down schools straight away? Announced at 8pm for the next morning? no time for parents to arrange childcare. Alas, nothing would surprise me now. Edited January 4, 2021 by trekka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted January 4, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 4, 2021 Just now, DCJonah said: But if they don't, they're allowing another day for kids to spread it. Is this your first time with this government? 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Just now, DCJonah said: But if they don't, they're allowing another day for kids to spread it. Let me be clear, for the next 2 days schools are perfectly safe. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 4, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, DCJonah said: I may be wrong, but weren't the scientists supporting this? Didn't they previously suggest that schools would have to close to get the r rate down. And the unions have requested the science to show why the government think that schools should remain open. I don't think the teaching unions have gone all militant. I think they've done very well. That's all fine. My point was tangential - that the PM and LotO should be following what the scientific advice says as an absolute at this time. If the Union view aligns with that then fine. But if (say) the Unions called for a 2 week shutdown of schools in tier 4, but the scientists said "3 weeks", or "Keep them open", or whatever - it should be that which informs decisions/ approach, not what a Union leader says. I'm not criticising either the Unions or the teachers, just saying my view is that SAGE and scientist, virologists etc. should be the people providing the advice which is followed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 The whole country is going in to tier 4. But the rules are different to tier 4. It seems unlikely that a government could unintentionally be this catastrophically poor at messaging . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Seat68 said: Peston posting spoilers online 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Just now, chrisp65 said: Should probably retitle him to Petty King Boris of England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 5 minutes ago, blandy said: That's all fine. My point was tangential - that the PM and LotO should be following what the scientific advice says as an absolute at this time. If the Union view aligns with that then fine. But if (say) the Unions called for a 2 week shutdown of schools in tier 4, but the scientists said "3 weeks", or "Keep them open", or whatever - it should be that which informs decisions/ approach, not what a Union leader says. I'm not criticising either the Unions or the teachers, just saying my view is that SAGE and scientist, virologists etc. should be the people providing the advice which is followed. Yes, absolutely agree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted January 4, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted January 4, 2021 National lockdown = all eyes on vaccine roll out. This lot aren't comfortable being held to such a simple unavoidable metric, which they know they will screw up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 19 minutes ago, DCJonah said: I may be wrong, but weren't the scientists supporting this? Didn't they previously suggest that schools would have to close to get the r rate down. And the unions have requested the science to show why the government think that schools should remain open. I don't think the teaching unions have gone all militant. I think they've done very well. You're right; LSHTM's modelling suggests that schools and unis need to close to get r below 1 with new variant: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesy7211 Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Just now, Jareth said: National lockdown = all eyes on vaccine roll out. This lot aren't comfortable being held to such a simple unavoidable metric, which they know they will screw up. I think this is a key point. Hancock has been especially evasive on dealing with questions about the vaccine rollout timeline. He's already started mutterings about not knowing how quickly and in what volumes the Oxford vaccine can be produced. If we do go into lockdown all resources must be provided by the government to assist the manufacturer. Surely there's ways to assist? Resource, manpower, technology? Surely? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 26 minutes ago, Davkaus said: The whole country is going in to tier 4. But the rules are different to tier 4. It seems unlikely that a government could unintentionally be this catastrophically poor at messaging . My money is on it being 4+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 I’m tempted not to send my kids tomorrow and Wednesday if they are gonna close from Thursday. My OH was really nervous about them going today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 If schools are closed, couldn't school halls be used as locations to administer the vaccination? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Genie said: I’m tempted not to send my kids tomorrow and Wednesday if they are gonna close from Thursday. My OH was really nervous about them going today. Easy to say when I don't have any, but if I did, I don't think I'd have sent them today, and they definitely wouldn't be going if the announcement tonight is that they're to open for another couple of days. There's no justification other than logistics for keeping them open for a day or two. If it's not a good idea for them to go in at the end of the week, it's not a good idea now. People need to prioritise their own family's safety and take actions that reflect that this government has consistently failed to protect its people. Edited January 4, 2021 by Davkaus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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