The Hung Like a Donkey General Election December 2019 Thread

[desensitized43]

Just now, blandy said:

Distrust of a party is fine and well founded. Blind refusal to engage with them is foolish and tribal. "They worked with Tories so we can't trust them" is a strange approach for all those twitterers who yearn for the return of Chris Williamson, who very much worked with the tories on Derby council.

Having been caught up in the "Clegg-mania" of 2010 I felt massively betrayed by the tuition fee broken promise. Not that I'd have benfitted as I had already finished uni by that time so I was using my vote for my younger cousins.

I didn't care that much that they worked with Cameron as I regarded him as fairly centre, for a Tory. It was that they didn't use the strong position they were in to demand their key election pledge was fulfilled and then the kick in the teeth was the trebling of the fees they voted for. I generally, even today, like most if not all of the Lib Dem policies but I can't get over what they did. It was unforgivable.  

[tomav84]

tribal following of political parties is my biggest pet hate of politics. many follow their party with the loyalty they show a football team. it should be about the here and now, not past glories/**** ups

[peterms]

Just now, blandy said:

So parties can change, right? Different leaders take them in different directions, for better or worse. Judge the Libs on what they did over 9 years ago under Clegg, but not on more recent policy and votes?

They've not changed under Swinson, have they?  As I said earlier, for them to work with Labour would mean overturning all the things they put through under Clegg, which Swinson and other current leading figures were very much part of.

Of course if they do change, and help undo some of the damage they caused, I'm sure others will be prepared to work with them.  I can't see it happening under Swinson, though - can you?

[blandy]

1 minute ago, peterms said:

They've not changed under Swinson, have they?  As I said earlier, for them to work with Labour would mean overturning all the things they put through under Clegg, which Swinson and other current leading figures were very much part of.

Of course if they do change, and help undo some of the damage they caused, I'm sure others will be prepared to work with them.  I can't see it happening under Swinson, though - can you?

I struggle to see Corbyn and Swinson working together. They have changed though. Their membership, as far as I can divine bitterly regrets that they "enabled" bad tory things, I think their MPs also feel the same (maybe not the recent defectors, mind). Their policies are not dissimilar to Labour's in a lot of areas. They're better on Brexit (though it would be hard not to be). Childcare, Environment and other stuff is along the lines of when they were more progressive, as you said, than Labour. They're economically not so very left wing as Corbyn.

As @desensitized43 mentioned, they've lost an awful lot of trust through tuition fees pledge breaking, the idiots, and that distrust will remain for a long while, I imagine. Through my eyes, though some of the bile towards them from Labour #JC4PM types is extremely tribal.

[tonyh29]

6 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

tribal following of political parties is my biggest pet hate of politics. many follow their party with the loyalty they show a football team. it should be about the here and now, not past glories/**** ups

tbf many here are advocating anyone but Tory rather than one particular party

to a degree when Blair basically was the Tory party without the sex scandals a lot of people did switch ... Now where you have a clear difference between the 2 main parties I think you'd find it hard politically to switch from Tory to Labour ( or vice versa) the policies are too far apart in many instances  ... this time around then a switch from Lab or Tory to Lib Dems on a revoke ground may come into play but presumably people will switch back to their regular "teams" at some point

[chrisp65]

12 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

tribal following of political parties is my biggest pet hate of politics. many follow their party with the loyalty they show a football team. it should be about the here and now, not past glories/**** ups

I agree with that. But we’ve also got to remember longer terms truths and longer term goals.

I have switched my vote a couple of times, but always in broadly the same area of politics. There will simply never be a day when I vote tory and there will never be a day I vote for a party with a right wing agenda.

People and parties I’d vote for don’t have to be all loved up right on LBGTXYZ, but basic principles should be sound. You can only really check that with track record. Use sites like ‘they work for you’ to see where a party or an individual stand in the grand scheme of things.

I wouldn’t be a natural Corbyn voter, I’d vote for him to prevent an increasingly right wing tory party getting 5 years to do their thing.

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

presumably people will switch back to their regular "teams" at some point

I dunno, Tony. Maybe if the party go back to what they were, but if they stay at the extremes then the who "game" fails. I rest of n a way I hope they do and it does, because the range of public opinion is not reflected in politics. The extreme Brexit types and the extreme militant types see hope in Tories and Labour, but the rest of us, not so much. If those parties vote share keeps falling, ventrally there will be enough to get a new system - PR based.

[peterms]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

ventrally there will be enough to get a new system

Do you think people will stomach it?

[chrisp65]

Rise of the Green agenda absolutely has to be the next destination after this whole Brexit shitshow. 

[HanoiVillan]

20 minutes ago, blandy said:

I struggle to see Corbyn and Swinson working together. They have changed though. Their membership, as far as I can divine bitterly regrets that they "enabled" bad tory things, I think their MPs also feel the same (maybe not the recent defectors, mind).

I think you're pointing here to one important issue, which is that what Lib Dem voters, Lib Dem activists, and Lib Dem MP's think may not be particularly similar at all. I think we've seen that over the last 24 hours with the fuss in Canterbury, but it's visible over other issues as well. of course the same allegation can be levelled truthfully at Labour as well, but their divisions are old news. Up until very recently, the Lib Dems had appeared to be better at presenting a united front, but there isn't much in common between, say, a remain activist who liked Labour under Ed Miliband but wants to cancel Brexit on the one hand, and Dr Philip Lee on the other hand. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by HanoiVillan

[blandy]

17 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I think you're pointing here to one important issue, which is that what Lib Dem voters, Lib Dem activists, and Lib Dem MP's think may not be particularly similar at all. I think we've seen that over the last 24 hours with the fuss in Canterbury, but it's visible over other issues as well. of course the same allegation can be levelled truthfully at Labour as well, but their divisions are old news. Up until very recently, the Lib Dems had appeared to be better at presenting a united front, but there isn't much in common between, say, a remain activist who liked Labour under Ed Miliband but wants to cancel Brexit on the one hand, and Dr Philip Lee on the other hand. 

Very true. All the parties have a range of political outlooks amongst supporters and MPs and activists. With the LDs importing from Labour and Tory rebels, there's quite a wide range in there. I think it's a case of where the centre (for a party) sits and then the distances to the outriders. I get the feeling that the tories don't really have a central core any more - the ERG throwers have temporary sway and Johnson just goes with whatever he feels will keep in in his job - there's no idealism for anything from him. With labour, it's gone around the cult of Jeremy on the leftish edge, and then a load of outriders more central. That too feels like it could crack, particularly as Catweazle is filling places for candidates with his friends and associates wherever he can. Lib Dems are sort of centre ground, leading out each way as you say, over quite a wide range, but it's not an extreme that's in control. Their "extremes" are compatible with Labour right and Tory left, with Swinson pretty much in the middle of their left-ish of centre overall place.

[tonyh29]

On 11/11/2019 at 15:16, markavfc40 said:

I am not a fan of Corbyn but he does seem to be able to connect with people

indeed he does

 

 

[StefanAVFC]

8 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

indeed he does

 

 

Ah this guy.

The homophobic, racist vicar.

But haha! He heckled Corbyn about his scarf! Hilarious.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

1 hour ago, tomav84 said:

not past glories/**** ups

But,  if they are not held to account for things they will repeat those errors surely.  The ballot box is the only judge for them these days ?  Hard facts and promises in politics are useless in the face of the social media bolox.  

[Davkaus]

On 13/11/2019 at 17:53, StefanAVFC said:

Ah this guy.

The homophobic, racist vicar.

But haha! He heckled Corbyn about his scarf! Hilarious.

Homophobic, yes - pretty much part of the job being a vicar, isn't it? Racist though? I don't see anything racist in those tweets. We live in a world in which people are still sentenced to death for apostasy. **** extreme Islam.

Edited November 14, 2019 by blandy
mod edit

[bickster]

If we're calling our terrorist sympathisers, why does no one call out the current Conservative Government. They had a supply and confidence deal with a bunch of terrorists

Corbyn is but so are the Tories. Just google Ulster Resistance and you'll get an idea of who Sammy Wilson really is, you'll see mention of an Arms deal whereby UR, the UVF, the Red Hand Commandos and the UDA conspired together to procure arms. Sammy WIlson chaired the meeting that set up UR (video exists of this). It is a widely held belief that Wilson was the QM that brokered the entire deal (mentioned in some documentary on The Troubles a few weeks back)

[markavfc40]

31 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

indeed he does

 

 

I doubt he'll lose any sleep over not connecting with a homphobic racist. I'd have thought that was more like the kind of voter the Tories will be looking to maintain a connection with.

Edited November 13, 2019 by markavfc40

[StefanAVFC]

2 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Homophobic, yes - pretty much part of the job being a vicar, isn't it? Racist though? I don't see anything racist in those tweets. We live in a world in which people are still sentenced to death for apostasy. **** Islam.

Sorry, anti-semitic. 

A bigot is a bigot, whichever '-ic' he is.

[Davkaus]

Just now, StefanAVFC said:

Sorry, anti-semitic. 

A bigot is a bigot, whichever '-ic' he is.

Ah fair enough - hadn't seen that one, I was just going by those in the article.

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, Davkaus said:

Ah fair enough - hadn't seen that one, I was just going by those in the article.

There are tonnes.

The guy is a clearing in the woods of the highest order.

It makes me laugh. That bloke who heckled Johnson about his sick daughter; well he's a Labour activist so it doesn't matter.

Yet a bigoted bloke gives Corbyn the big'un and he's celebrated for it. You dare call it out, and you're defensive.

As I said, makes me laugh and shows people for who are really are.