Douglas Luiz

[Zatman]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

That'll make him 28?

When players normally get to the prime

[Mjvilla]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

That doesn't make sense....firstly you condemn me for saying it......and then you proceed to agree.

what do you mean?

I say it all the time, because we lack it all the time.....fouling is completely different from robust challenging, that's where the skill factor comes in.

 

This is what I mean, I wasn't criticising you for saying it all the time. We don't 'lack it all the time' that's what's naive. There are moments in a game where aggression is good. 

The moment you are criticising Dougie for last night is not a moment to be aggressive. The ball high, he's to the ball a second or two after the opponent. That's got red card if youre too aggressive written all over it. You don't rectify a mistake which has made you late for the ball (positioning?) By being aggressive. That's what Cash did. 

Aggression is a pretty general term, we need to press more aggressively and with more assertiveness. Our passing needs to be more aggressive (forward and with belief), sometimes we can tackle with more aggression and use our bodies with more aggression. I don't believe aggression cost us a goal last night. Even if we were too passive at times.

[Awol]

Hopefully Citeh will be banned from European competition next season removing at least some of the incentive for him to go. I know his form is terrible right now, but he played much better when the players in front of him didn’t lose the ball constantly inviting a ton of pressure on to the team. The real problems lie elsewhere, imo.

That said I think they’ll activate the clause and take him back in June anyway. 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Mjvilla said:

This is what I mean, I wasn't criticising you for saying it all the time. We don't 'lack it all the time' that's what's naive. There are moments in a game where aggression is good. 

The moment you are criticising Dougie for last night is not a moment to be aggressive. The ball high, he's to the ball a second or two after the opponent. That's got red card if youre too aggressive written all over it. You don't rectify a mistake which has made you late for the ball (positioning?) By being aggressive. That's what Cash did. 

Aggression is a pretty general term, we need to press more aggressively and with more assertiveness. Our passing needs to be more aggressive (forward and with belief), sometimes we can tackle with more aggression and use our bodies with more aggression. I don't believe aggression cost us a goal last night. Even if we were too passive at times.

Thats precisely what I mean....but you just assumed, I meant like the " crazy Gang" which i didn't....Tell me when controlled aggression's not good?, fouling or violent play,  is not the aggression, I allude to.....its playing with conviction, not being tentative.

I accept your point, He might have been a fraction late, but thats where the second goal come from Gundagan, beat him to the ball, Thats a CDM's ball.

just a point, Pep mentioned the word aggression, 3 times during his after match interview, in describing his team, in addition to their fabulous talent.....we would do well, to take heed and if we can't match them for talent, at least match them for aggression.....and then take it in to the other games too.

Lets see how we fair against the Albion.

ps controlled Aggression and too much aggression, relate to different consequences.....Don't confuse them.

Edited April 22, 2021 by TRO

[Mjvilla]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

Thats precisely what I mean....but you just assumed, I meant like the " crazy Gang" which i didn't.

I accept your point, He might have been a fraction late, but thats where the second goal come from Gundagan, beat him to the ball, Thats a CDM's ball.

just a point, Pep mentioned the word aggression, 3 times during his after match interview, in describing his team, in addition to their fabulous talent.....we would do well, to take heed and if we can't match them for talent, at least match them for aggression.....and then take it in to the other games too.

Lets see how we fair against the Albion.

When you're two key points are aggression and heading, it's hard not to see why!

[TRO]

Just now, Mjvilla said:

When you're two key points are aggression and heading, it's hard not to see why!

So whats wrong with heading, now?......this game of ours is not rounders ,you know.

One of the best footballing sides in European football have used it to beat us.....and a fine header it was too.

What is your beef, with physical contact?....is it taboo, with you.

[Vive_La_Villa]

Peps comments suggest he’s still a fan and they could consider buying him back. I doubt it though. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[sne]

Headed goals in the PL 20/21

West Ham & Everton 13

Man C 8

Villa 7

Newcastle 6

Sheff U, Leicester, Fulham  & West Brom 4

Heading is one of the skills that elite players should master but it's not something you build your squad around.

The main things with Pep teams has always been ball retention and winning the ball back as early and high up the pitch as possible so intensity and "aggression" is certainly important. It's not winning the ball by crunching tackles and brute force thou it's through intelligence and if need be tactical fouling.

 

[PaulC]

Yes Man City work a lot harder at winning the ball back than we do. They are agressive when not in possession we are too passive. 

[TRO]

47 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Peps comments suggest he’s still a fan and they could consider buying him back. I doubt it though. 

They play mind games, just like Fergie.....always praising other folk, how many managers has Fergie recommended, Alex McLeish and we fell for it.

[Mjvilla]

14 hours ago, TRO said:

So whats wrong with heading, now?......this game of ours is not rounders ,you know.

One of the best footballing sides in European football have used it to beat us.....and a fine header it was too.

What is your beef, with physical contact?....is it taboo, with you.

Id hoped the winky face would show it was a tongue in cheek comment. I thought it was quite obvious. 

As for the last comment, that's verging on an insult and shows you clearly just pick the bits from my posts you want to disagree with and comment on that. 

I've said, multiple times, that we need to be more aggressive, at the right times. Like Matty Cash, clearly wasn't the right time for an aggressive tackle. Same with the Douglas Luiz moment on the edge of the box. Same for John Stones.

Being physically aggressive and having to make a tackle in Douglas Luiz position on the edge of the box means he has done something else wrong. We deal with the first ball well. Douglas Luiz position is to mark the edge of the box. He is level with the penalty spot when the corner is taken. He is too deep. There's the error. So, why does it have to be about aggression? 

I'm now going to go and check the Nakamba thread and the Traore thread or even the Cash thread to see if you've made similar criticisms regarding the first goal. The header down by zinchenko (in behind cash) to an unmarked foden. Nakamba closest to him, on traores side. Let's see if there's criticism in those threads for their parts in that goal?

Or is it just criticism toward Douglas Luiz because it fits the narrative you've been pushing for a long time now that you don't think he is good enough? I get it. He hasn't been good enough lately. 

In the interests of fairness, like you claim you used to do for Bruce, I shall take a look at those threads now...

[Mjvilla]

4 minutes ago, Mjvilla said:

Id hoped the winky face would show it was a tongue in cheek comment. I thought it was quite obvious. 

As for the last comment, that's verging on an insult and shows you clearly just pick the bits from my posts you want to disagree with and comment on that. 

I've said, multiple times, that we need to be more aggressive, at the right times. Like Matty Cash, clearly wasn't the right time for an aggressive tackle. Same with the Douglas Luiz moment on the edge of the box. Same for John Stones.

Being physically aggressive and having to make a tackle in Douglas Luiz position on the edge of the box means he has done something else wrong. We deal with the first ball well. Douglas Luiz position is to mark the edge of the box. He is level with the penalty spot when the corner is taken. He is too deep. There's the error. So, why does it have to be about aggression? 

I'm now going to go and check the Nakamba thread and the Traore thread or even the Cash thread to see if you've made similar criticisms regarding the first goal. The header down by zinchenko (in behind cash) to an unmarked foden. Nakamba closest to him, on traores side. Let's see if there's criticism in those threads for their parts in that goal?

Or is it just criticism toward Douglas Luiz because it fits the narrative you've been pushing for a long time now that you don't think he is good enough? I get it. He hasn't been good enough lately. 

In the interests of fairness, like you claim you used to do for Bruce, I shall take a look at those threads now...

Imagine my surprise... 

[barry'sboots]

13 hours ago, PaulC said:

Yes Man City work a lot harder at winning the ball back than we do. They are agressive when not in possession we are too passive. 

I don't see that as aggression, I see it as better, more co-ordinated pressing?

I think - and shoot me down if I'm wrong TRO - you want a physically dominant central midfielder - in the mould of Rice, Fernandinho, Rodri, Kante, Fabinho or Phillips - and by "aggression" you mean the whole midfield (indeed team) "needs to have a desire to hunt the ball down/close down and win it back quickly and high up the pitch?"  We have the perfect "9" for this in Ollie. 

If we were to get £27.5m for Luiz - which is the rumoured buy back amount - and, say, £8m, for Nakamba and went out and bought Berge (from Sheff U) for £30m-£35m (as mooted) and, say, Koopmeiners for £25m, we would have invested circa £20m net and have 2 x DCM options and 2 x "8"s with SJM and Sanson.  I personally would like to see Ramsey go out on loan for 12 months and get regular football.  Then, for me, we need a "10" or LW (Rashica seems a good and well priced option for this - given his contractual position) depending on where they want to play Jack and, say, Olise as a young lad to cover both/rotate.

 

[barry'sboots]

I assume that Citeh cannot just buy him back without his approval??

He would surely only go back if he had assurances that I am not sure that Citeh would be able to give?

[AndyM3000]

Would be good if we can get some players next to him who can control and pass a football. 

[PaulC]

I know hes a Brazillian international but I'm not convinced by him anymore. Hes part of our problem of not pressing, not winning tackles, not winning headers, giving the ball away just as much as the other two midfielders. I'd stick with him for another season and see how it goes. 

Edited April 23, 2021 by PaulC

[andym]

17 hours ago, sne said:

Headed goals in the PL 20/21

West Ham & Everton 13

Man C 8

Villa 7

Newcastle 6

Sheff U, Leicester, Fulham  & West Brom 4

Heading is one of the skills that elite players should master but it's not something you build your squad around.

The main things with Pep teams has always been ball retention and winning the ball back as early and high up the pitch as possible so intensity and "aggression" is certainly important. It's not winning the ball by crunching tackles and brute force thou it's through intelligence and if need be tactical fouling.

 

Agree, it's interesting that heading and aerial ability has been talked about so much for us, and for Luiz in particular, when it's not actually a huge weak point (relatively speaking). We don't concede many from set pieces, or from the big booming cross into the box, which is where you would typically see an inherent weakness in winning the traditional physical aerial battle.

Luiz himself is top 20 in Premier League midfielders for aerials won, headed clearances and clearances in general, and is top 3 in blocks, he's actually ahead of several 'good DM's' that regularly get mentioned on here in those areas. Interestingly both Mings and Konsa are right up there for defenders in the same categories.

To me, this backs up the system we seem to play, which is a sort of bend but don't break system - we defend quite narrow, allow teams to the outside, and then back Mings and Konsa to either win the big cross into the box from out wide, or block shots, with Luiz covering the edge of the box. Therefore those stats are not surprising.

Where we get in most trouble is when we allow runners to get closer to the box and put in the lowish cross - that may be converted by a diving header, for example, Giroud away at Chelsea, Martial away Man U - that type of header. That's not so much losing a physical aerial battle, as getting done by movement and not tracking runners.

That is our biggest weakness; when we are not on it, we allow teams to run through us and off us too easily; the tackle and interception stats of our midfield are extremely poor in comparison to others. Lately we have been terrible at closing down and snapping at the heels of opponents, forcing them into mistakes - we've simply been far too 'nice'. End of last season and 1st half of this season Luiz was very good at doing this, but that part of his game has fallen off a cliff the last few months (although he's not the only one).

[MotoMkali]

11 hours ago, andym said:

Agree, it's interesting that heading and aerial ability has been talked about so much for us, and for Luiz in particular, when it's not actually a huge weak point (relatively speaking). We don't concede many from set pieces, or from the big booming cross into the box, which is where you would typically see an inherent weakness in winning the traditional physical aerial battle.

Luiz himself is top 20 in Premier League midfielders for aerials won, headed clearances and clearances in general, and is top 3 in blocks, he's actually ahead of several 'good DM's' that regularly get mentioned on here in those areas. Interestingly both Mings and Konsa are right up there for defenders in the same categories.

To me, this backs up the system we seem to play, which is a sort of bend but don't break system - we defend quite narrow, allow teams to the outside, and then back Mings and Konsa to either win the big cross into the box from out wide, or block shots, with Luiz covering the edge of the box. Therefore those stats are not surprising.

Where we get in most trouble is when we allow runners to get closer to the box and put in the lowish cross - that may be converted by a diving header, for example, Giroud away at Chelsea, Martial away Man U - that type of header. That's not so much losing a physical aerial battle, as getting done by movement and not tracking runners.

That is our biggest weakness; when we are not on it, we allow teams to run through us and off us too easily; the tackle and interception stats of our midfield are extremely poor in comparison to others. Lately we have been terrible at closing down and snapping at the heels of opponents, forcing them into mistakes - we've simply been far too 'nice'. End of last season and 1st half of this season Luiz was very good at doing this, but that part of his game has fallen off a cliff the last few months (although he's not the only one).

The biggest culprits for this are traore, McGinn and Barkley. 9/10 if a runner has either scored or created a goal it will have come from one of them. 

[TRO]

22 hours ago, Mjvilla said:

Id hoped the winky face would show it was a tongue in cheek comment. I thought it was quite obvious. 

As for the last comment, that's verging on an insult and shows you clearly just pick the bits from my posts you want to disagree with and comment on that. 

I've said, multiple times, that we need to be more aggressive, at the right times. Like Matty Cash, clearly wasn't the right time for an aggressive tackle. Same with the Douglas Luiz moment on the edge of the box. Same for John Stones.

Being physically aggressive and having to make a tackle in Douglas Luiz position on the edge of the box means he has done something else wrong. We deal with the first ball well. Douglas Luiz position is to mark the edge of the box. He is level with the penalty spot when the corner is taken. He is too deep. There's the error. So, why does it have to be about aggression? 

I'm now going to go and check the Nakamba thread and the Traore thread or even the Cash thread to see if you've made similar criticisms regarding the first goal. The header down by zinchenko (in behind cash) to an unmarked foden. Nakamba closest to him, on traores side. Let's see if there's criticism in those threads for their parts in that goal?

Or is it just criticism toward Douglas Luiz because it fits the narrative you've been pushing for a long time now that you don't think he is good enough? I get it. He hasn't been good enough lately. 

In the interests of fairness, like you claim you used to do for Bruce, I shall take a look at those threads now...

Ok, so it was tongue in cheek, so I apologise for not reading your true intention.

I didn't go after the other players you mention, because IMO they wasn't quite in the same position as Dougie to disrupt their passage of play, its a team game, so of course, you can pick out anyone, I just chose the CDM whose job it is to get that ball.

I thought Nakamba was poor too.....but Nakamba doesn't get the level of Praise Doug does or the minutes in games.....We kind know Nakamba is not sufficient quality, that is not the same case of Dougie, albeit many folk are having a closer look at Dougs work lately.....as you yourself say " He hasn't been good lately" and contest that when I say it.

You have got aggression is the wrong context, I think.......Its about being aggressive with yourself to win games ( like Andy Gray did) I think aggression is absolutely paramount to success....Pep mentioned it 3 times in his after match interview, that is the level of emphasis, he puts on it, and thats a team with all the talent in the world.....aggression moves you, Phil Foden has it, it manifests itself in to determination and drives out complacency or half soaked attitudes......Graeme Sounes was critical of Arsenal last night, in terms of lacking aggression, it breeds a lack lustre performance.....which is what we are offering lately.

I don't think Dougie is good enough in that role, "in that role" being the operative words......Dean smith said in his Pre match Albion Interview that John McGinn has been asked to play deeper which I didn't know ( but something I have commented on too, he is better further forward) I Feel the same about Dougie.

I am as keen to see good performances from Douglas as I was from Hourihane or Keinan, but I can only truthfully say, what I see.....I equally think we have 4/5 players who are so inconsistent, appraisals on them could be changed from game to game.

If you think I am just out to get Dougie, you are wrong....I would like to think my thinking on football is more mature than than......and Oh, I would be delighted if all our players played to their max and showed a bit of that natural aggression the top teams show.....you are right, its not just Dougie alone.

[villa4europe]

Football insider running an interview with mcleish saying that he's been a terrific signing and villa should fear losing him to man City who should be looking to bring him back

Buy back clause is £27.5m and expires in June 

I still think gundogans form this season means it won't happen regardless of how inconsistent he's been for us