Wesley Moraes

[KentVillan]

25 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

Kodjia is an exciting player, or can be, but I wonder how many chances he will provide our wide men or midfielders committing forward?

Wes at least has a good sense of who to play in and when. He very nearly had an assist today through a short instep pass across the box, wasn't to be.

It might not be bums out of seats football, but Wes is doing the unselfish stuff well, he actually is, whether he makes the grade or not, or finds his feet under Smith.

I agree that Wesley is good at all of this - I'm not in the "Wesley is a ****ing donkey" camp - but I'm not sure it's what we need in most games.

I think we're crying out for a striker who plays on the last man, bends his runs, hits the channels, attacks the six yard box, etc. The link-up play is secondary to that.

[A'Villan]

7 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

I agree that Wesley is good at all of this - I'm not in the "Wesley is a ****ing donkey" camp - but I'm not sure it's what we need in most games.

I think we're crying out for a striker who plays on the last man, bends his runs, hits the channels, attacks the six yard box, etc. The link-up play is secondary to that.

Yes, I agree.

We want to occupy territory that threatens on goal and with men who can finish by netting a goal.

We need a striker who's going to enable us to penetrate enemy lines whether directly or indirectly, regardless of whether he receives it or not, with clever runs.

I think Kodjia has more pace to his game, and agility is oftentimes what you need to win the contest, and also probably has a better vertical jump than Wes.

I'm not convinced JK is the better man at the attributes mentioned though, except for attacking the six yard box, which he does with more impetus than Wes currently

 

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, KentVillan said:

I agree that Wesley is good at all of this - I'm not in the "Wesley is a ****ing donkey" camp - but I'm not sure it's what we need in most games.

I think we're crying out for a striker who plays on the last man, bends his runs, hits the channels, attacks the six yard box, etc. The link-up play is secondary to that.

Yep. Wesley might be great in the long term as we gain a foothold in this league but right now he's a luxury we can't afford. We need a striker who runs in behind and in the channels and isn't to fussed about the link up play. It keeps the defence on their toes and less focused on nullifying our build up play, which is easier to do when the striker is damn near in midfield trying to be a part of it.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Keyblade

[KenjiOgiwara]

6 hours ago, A'Villan said:

His little dummy run and finish today show that he has other assets that could be just as pivotal in him successfully getting in behind enemy lines.

It really didn't. But I'm intrigued. Tell me more. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by KenjiOgiwara

[ciggiesnbeer]

Wesley is too defensively minded and Kodjia is too selfish.

I know nothing about football coaching, but those two things seem trainable to me?

I thought they both showed their great strengths in the game as well though obviously. I like them both. I just hope they can work on areas of their game that are holding them back. 






 

Edited December 18, 2019 by ciggiesnbeer

[KenjiOgiwara]

1 minute ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

Wesley is too defensively minded and Kodjia is too selfish.

I know nothing about football coaching, but those two things seem trainable to me?

That's just parts of it. He also does not have the ability or instinct to do what people are suggesting. 

[villalad21]

I think Kodjia is more difficult to play against.

He makes much more runs behind the defence and is always a threat in the box.

Wesley just seem so easy to play against for defenders.

[A'Villan]

43 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

It really didn't. But I'm intrigued. Tell me more. 

Come on Kenji!

I'm not suggesting he'll do it every week but his timing, movement, angles, touch and finish were all spot on.

His reading of the game alone had me impressed, to dummy the defense whilst knowing where the ball would be played, remaining on-side.

Are you trying to tell me he didn't just get in behind the final defensive line and put it in the bottom corner for goal?

Even without pace he was able to create space for himself. It wasn't just the dummy run, his touch and positioning after getting in behind put him in position to finish.

Any last ditch tackle was coming from behind and through his body, and that's because of his touch and positioning, then he allows himself the angle to finish.

Low and hard inside shot across the keeper and into the bottom corner. Fundamentals game strong (in this incident).

 

[mikeyjavfc]

1 hour ago, villalad21 said:

I think Kodjia is more difficult to play against.

He makes much more runs behind the defence and is always a threat in the box.

Wesley just seem so easy to play against for defenders.

This is not true at all with respect to aerial battles. Whenever Kodjia has been on pitch this year I have been amazed just how weak he looks in challenging in the air up against premier league centre backs. That being said, so long as we don’t play any long hoof balls, no problem. Wesley has been increasingly good at winning his aerial duels I feel. Kodjia’s lack of work ethic is also an issue. 
 

if you could combine the 2 players skill set you have a quality striker. 

[KenjiOgiwara]

28 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

Come on Kenji!

I'm not suggesting he'll do it every week but his timing, movement, angles, touch and finish were all spot on.

His reading of the game alone had me impressed, to dummy the defense whilst knowing where the ball would be played, remaining on-side.

Are you trying to tell me he didn't just get in behind the final defensive line and put it in the bottom corner for goal?

Even without pace he was able to create space for himself. It wasn't just the dummy run, his touch and positioning after getting in behind put him in position to finish.

Any last ditch tackle was coming from behind and through his body, and that's because of his touch and positioning, then he allows himself the angle to finish.

Low and hard inside shot across the keeper and into the bottom corner. Fundamentals game strong (in this incident).

 

His arched run and finish was excellent. But it's clear he does not have the pace, acceleration or explosiveness to do that in the PL. They would beat him to that ball all day long. 

And that's before we discuss that he did it was a sub against a bunch of physically and mentally tired teenagers after a 4-0 spanking. 

The ONLY big positive for me is that he has shown time and again he knows how to finish in different angles like a proper poacher. I am sure he could excell doing that in a worse league, say SPL. I do not like talking badly about Wes, but it's pretty clear to me he does not have the attributes to do this in the PL. Ofc. if he shows me different, egg on face, salami in the ear, or whatever English food expression that suits it. 

[villalad21]

20 minutes ago, mikeyjavfc said:

This is not true at all with respect to aerial battles. Whenever Kodjia has been on pitch this year I have been amazed just how weak he looks in challenging in the air up against premier league centre backs. That being said, so long as we don’t play any long hoof balls, no problem. Wesley has been increasingly good at winning his aerial duels I feel. Kodjia’s lack of work ethic is also an issue. 
 

if you could combine the 2 players skill set you have a quality striker. 

Didn't realize we were Stoke.

[mikeyjavfc]

4 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Didn't realize we were Stoke.

lol ok m8. Like all teams we have plenty of long balls up to our striker, especially when were under pressure from pressing sides. We better be prepared to lose that outlet if we play Kodjia, as no one else in the midfield or forward lines is good at this either.

[Delphinho123]

I’m glad he got that goal last night. Let’s face it, even though I think Kodjia should start ahead of him, I don’t think it will happen so I’m hoping that goal gives him a bit of confidence. 

We have 3/4 season defining games coming up and we need Wesley to come good for these. We’re then into January where I hope to god he is replaced. 

C’mon Wesley boy, prove me wrong. 

[villalad21]

8 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

C’mon Wesley boy, prove me wrong. 

Hate to be that guy but Kodjia showed more to me in that game than Wesley has done all season.

[Philosopher]

9 hours ago, villa4europe said:

Not just glad he scored

That type of goal, that composed a finish to me shows what his strength is 

He's not a traditional English big muscly bully boy forward, stop playing him like one 

Agreed, but I don't thing is being played as one. I think that's the expectation of fans, who are now hating on him for not being a good traditional target man.

He is being used as what I would describe as a strong false nine. When we are in our own half and win it back he is expected to hold it up and link up, but rather than run straight for the box after that he stays with the play to link up and allow a quicker player to make runs beyond him. Problem is we are struggling to get those quickers players beyond him, and close enough to him and he is being left isolated.

It should also be pointed out that the way Smith seems to be trying to use him take a very astute tactical brain, good awareness and anticipation. For a player new to the league, and the team, in a team which is new itself is a very hard task. 

We have seen him bully the Everton back two and get in behind them. That's  Mina and Keane two very good defenders. He held it up and linked up well against Man U, Maguire and lindiloff two very good defenders. 

He has shown a clinical ability to finish. And flashes of ability in many other areas. He needs time and support, because I see a quality striker in him given another season or two, as he applies himself.

[Dave-R]

29 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

Agreed, but I don't thing is being played as one. I think that's the expectation of fans, who are now hating on him for not being a good traditional target man.

He is being used as what I would describe as a strong false nine. When we are in our own half and win it back he is expected to hold it up and link up, but rather than run straight for the box after that he stays with the play to link up and allow a quicker player to make runs beyond him. Problem is we are struggling to get those quickers players beyond him, and close enough to him and he is being left isolated.

It should also be pointed out that the way Smith seems to be trying to use him take a very astute tactical brain, good awareness and anticipation. For a player new to the league, and the team, in a team which is new itself is a very hard task. 

We have seen him bully the Everton back two and get in behind them. That's  Mina and Keane two very good defenders. He held it up and linked up well against Man U, Maguire and lindiloff two very good defenders. 

He has shown a clinical ability to finish. And flashes of ability in many other areas. He needs time and support, because I see a quality striker in him given another season or two, as he applies himself.

I agree with this, I certainly think he will become better.

If anything I'd buy a striker to compete with Wesley and not to replace.

More so I think we need to buy quality Wingers who have the eye for low crosses, who can almost without a doubt whip one in and can find that pin in a haystack. I think that's what we are lacking so desperately as our crosses just seem to go no where, they don't connect, they are just wild and loose or easily intercepted. 

Wesley isn't the problem, it's real quality behind him in the middle of the park and on the wings, nail that and I firmly believe we will start winning against these teams that have only just managed to beat us in the end.

[Guest av1]

43 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Hate to be that guy but Kodjia showed more to me in that game than Wesley has done all season.

Really? It's amazing that Kodjias 2 goals (in 70mins) show he is a goal scorer, but Wesley's 1 goal in 20mins, for some is laughed off as "scoring against kids"

It's also interested that one of the things people criticise Wesley for is his attitude, yet overlook the petulant, embarrassing strop from Kodjia when he thought he should have won a penalty. 

I still prefer Wesley by quite a considerable distance. 

[A'Villan]

1 hour ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

His arched run and finish was excellent. But it's clear he does not have the pace, acceleration or explosiveness to do that in the PL. They would beat him to that ball all day long. 

And that's before we discuss that he did it was a sub against a bunch of physically and mentally tired teenagers after a 4-0 spanking. 

The ONLY big positive for me is that he has shown time and again he knows how to finish in different angles like a proper poacher. I am sure he could excell doing that in a worse league, say SPL. I do not like talking badly about Wes, but it's pretty clear to me he does not have the attributes to do this in the PL. Ofc. if he shows me different, egg on face, salami in the ear, or whatever English food expression that suits it. 

We're talking about a youth team lacking in pace, acceleration and explosiveness?

I'm sorry but I have to verse the youth team of the club I play for in scrimmages and running and footwork contests all the time.

If there's one thing they're guaranteed to bring it's enthusiasm, energy and a willing to impress to make the step up, they're competitive athletes.

Maybe if you'd said a PL defender who's a bit more wily and savvy might've been more clued in to his run, then I'd say okay maybe, but I think Wes can only be praised for this one.

[villalad21]

7 minutes ago, av1 said:

Really? It's amazing that Kodjias 2 goals (in 70mins) show he is a goal scorer, but Wesley's 1 goal in 20mins, for some is laughed off as "scoring against kids"

It's also interested that one of the things people criticise Wesley for is his attitude, yet overlook the petulant, embarrassing strop from Kodjia when he thought he should have won a penalty. 

I still prefer Wesley by quite a considerable distance. 

Yes because he played like an actual centre forward.

Making runs behind the defense and being in the box at the end of crosses.

He actually got credited the goal from Conor's free kick on Sky so he actually got a hat trick.

Most times Wesley is no where near the box when he needs to be and he barely makes runs. He is too busy dilly dallying in the midfield.

[bobzy]

As much as Wesley has been an obvious fault, I actually think a lot of the problem is our midfield.  It sounds weird, because it's arguably the strong point of our team, but everyone seems to sit deep and/or central which stifles our ability to get forward effectively.  Our goal scoring tally isn't that bad in the league, but I would wager a lot of these have come from set pieces.

When you watch Wesley play (league, at least) he is either used as a target man for long balls when we're under pressure (he isn't great at this, although does win flick-ons) or as a hold-up forward to get the midfield up the pitch.  Neither works that well, although they're roles he needs to perform.

It's quite rare that our midfield are up with him or getting beyond him.  3 of his goals have happened when the ball is wide left and he's able to get at the near post - against Arsenal (Grealish assist?), Norwich (Hourihane) and last night (Trezeguet).  Although last nights' was a run and - very good - finish, it was the same principle.  With another body up with him, he was able to make something happen.

Naturally, we need to see more of the movement that we saw in his goal against Everton.  He'll be inconsistent, too, as he's still adapting and learning about both the league and the team.  We need to see more from Wesley, but I also think we need to see more from our midfield.  Out of all of them, Trezeguet is the only one who properly bombs forward.  Maybe he's the 'answer'?