Racism in Football

[Stevo985]

8 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

Yes they did but in my opinion and it is only my opinion they became hero’s to millions at home and around the word. I personally think standing with them, for what at the time was their cause was incredibly brave and selfless.

Now someone taking that course of action would be applauded, hell it would be expected actually. Back then he made himself a pariah in his own community and nation.

It was a remarkably brave and selfless act.

That doesn’t in any way detract from the actions of or the respect for the two American’s I just think he was even braver.

I agree it was incredibly brave and selfless. It was a great story and he is heroic. I just don't think he was as heroic as the two black athletes, and if I'm being totally honest I think it's a bit problematic to suggest as much

[Keyblade]

2 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

Playing devils advocate though Viera and Henry are two terrible examples. Henry got the Monaco job and could have had the Villa job so that is really no different to Lampard or Rooney. While Viera only went to the US as it was all part of the Man City deal, he then got a job in Europe.

There is without doubt an under representation in management and it Is hard to make any sort of case that conscious or unconscious bias and racism is at its heart but don’t use crap examples to make the point.

It is like sighting John Barnes or Paul Ince in this country as examples.

Yeah they aren't the best examples. To be fair, with Viera, I thought he would have been made manager of a big club long ago. Captain of the Invincibles, all time PL great. World Cup and Euro winner. Middling Arteta got to be Arsenal manager before him (he was also an assistant at City so that makes it an even closer comparison). I think his example in the video of himself is a much more cogent one. Made direct comparisons to his successors as well (the Inzaghi comparison is kind of damning).

An interesting thing is how quickly the careers of managers like Ince seem to peter out. Failed at Blackburn, and that's it. It's almost like you had your 1 chance, and you blew it, sorry. Don't think he's had a job higher than League 1 since. Meanwhile, a lot of his contemporaries (such as Mark Hughes as an example off the top of my head) seem circle the PL drain for ages before they start struggling for work. Coming back to the Vieira example, I wouldn't be surprised now that he's been sacked by Nice, something similar might happen to him.

[Zatman]

15 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Yeah they aren't the best examples. To be fair, with Viera, I thought he would have been made manager of a big club long ago. Captain of the Invincibles, all time PL great. World Cup and Euro winner. Middling Arteta got to be Arsenal manager before him (he was also an assistant at City so that makes it an even closer comparison). I think his example in the video of himself is a much more cogent one. Made direct comparisons to his successors as well (the Inzaghi comparison is kind of damning).

An interesting thing is how quickly the careers of managers like Ince seem to peter out. Failed at Blackburn, and that's it. It's almost like you had your 1 chance, and you blew it, sorry. Don't think he's had a job higher than League 1 since. Meanwhile, a lot of his contemporaries (such as Mark Hughes as an example off the top of my head) seem circle the PL drain for ages before they start struggling for work. Coming back to the Vieira example, I wouldn't be surprised now that he's been sacked by Nice, something similar might happen to him.

Seedorf record at Milan was quite average but he got a job in China, the Cameroon national job and Deportivo after it. Inzaghi was also poor at Milan but he dropped to Serie B worked his way up to Bologna, sacked again and got a job in Serie B again and brought Benevento up. Seedorf has a 32% win ratio in his 4 jobs

I understand some of his points but he has been poor in a number of jobs now

[Keyblade]

8 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Seedorf record at Milan was quite average but he got a job in China, the Cameroon national job and Deportivo after it. Inzaghi was also poor at Milan but he dropped to Serie B worked his way up to Bologna, sacked again and got a job in Serie B again and brought Benevento up. Seedorf has a 32% win ratio in his 4 jobs

I understand some of his points but he has been poor in a number of jobs now

He wasn't average at Milan, he was actually quite good. As he mentions, he took them from the relegation zone to 1 goal off a European place. He oversaw their first 5 match winning streak for 3 years and beat Inter for the first time since then too. Only 3 managers since have bettered his 50% win ratio and one of them only was in charge for 7 games. He got sacked after 4 months. His successor, Inzaghi? Given a full season despite a Lambert-esque 35% win ratio. Actually, all of his successors bar 1 were given a minimum of 1 full season in charge.

He had 2 short stints in China and Spain, which were both admittedly poor but nothing since. According to him he doesn't get any calls from either in Italy where he is a legend nor his home country in Holland (where the standard of football isn't exactly earth-shattering). Kind of echoes what I was saying above about them not being given a chance to succeed/fail. He hasn't even managed a full season worth of games after Milan and he's already virtually blacklisted.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Keyblade

[Zatman]

5 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

He wasn't average at Milan, he was actually quite good. As he mentions, he took them from the relegation zone to 1 goal off a European place. He oversaw their first 5 match winning streak for 3 years and beat Inter for the first time since then too. Only 3 managers since have bettered his 50% win ratio and one of them only was in charge for 7 games. He got sacked after 4 months. His successor, Inzaghi? Given a full season despite a Lambert-esque 35% win ratio. Actually, all of his successors bar 1 were given a minimum of 1 full season in charge.

He had 2 short stints in China and Spain, which were both admittedly poor but nothing since. According to him he doesn't get any calls from either in Italy where he is a legend nor his home country in Holland (where the standard of football isn't exactly earth-shattering). Kind of echoes what I was saying above about them not being given a chance to succeed/fail. He hasn't even managed a full season worth of games after Milan and he's already virtually blacklisted.

He got smashed in the Champions League by Atletico Madrid, knocked out of the Coppa Italia at home to mid table Udinese and had a 3 game losing streak in the Serie A before this winning run. He lost 9 of his 22 games in charge

Milan were also 11th when they sacked Allegri and finished 8th

[Keyblade]

1 minute ago, Zatman said:

He got smashed in the Champions League by Atletico Madrid, knocked out of the Coppa Italia at home to mid table Udinese and had a 3 game losing streak in the Serie A before this winning run. He lost 9 of his 22 games in charge

Milan were also 11th when they sacked Allegri and finished 8th

He also won 11 of them. Relative to all the Milan managers after him, only the current boss (currently sitting 2nd) has a better win % than he did. Tim Sherwood stuff I know, but it is what it is.

I mean, even if you spin it negatively, it's hardly like he was John Carver was it? Is it not suspicious that someone with his prestige and esteem in the game doesn't even get interviewed for jobs even if his short career so far has been unremarkable? 

[Zatman]

11 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

He also won 11 of them. Relative to all the Milan managers after him, only the current boss (currently sitting 2nd) has a better win % than he did. Tim Sherwood stuff I know, but it is what it is.

I mean, even if you spin it negatively, it's hardly like he was John Carver was it? Is it not suspicious that someone with his prestige and esteem in the game doesn't even get interviewed for jobs even if his short career so far has been unremarkable? 

well Mihajlovic and Montella had the same win ratio to Seedorf over a much longer time period. He got Deportivo relegated in Spain and he brought Cameroon who were the holders of the African Nations Cup to a really weak title defence

Hard to say he hasnt been given jobs though

[TrentVilla]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

I agree it was incredibly brave and selfless. It was a great story and he is heroic. I just don't think he was as heroic as the two black athletes, and if I'm being totally honest I think it's a bit problematic to suggest as much

I don’t so we will have to agree to differ.

[Keyblade]

30 minutes ago, Zatman said:

well Mihajlovic and Montella had the same win ratio to Seedorf over a much longer time period. He got Deportivo relegated in Spain and he brought Cameroon who were the holders of the African Nations Cup to a really weak title defence

Hard to say he hasnt been given jobs though

International football is basically a roulette. The managers of some of the biggest countries in the world are failed club managers. Wouldn't put too much stock in that.

He had 16 games in charge of Deportivo, who were already in the relegation zone when he took over in February. It's like someone taking over Fulham right now and finishing 18th. Hardly a blemish on their career.

Well seemingly it was as he's hardly had a crack of the whip since. Not a single call, as he tells it. It does seem like black coaches are given much less rope so to speak, to use a somewhat inappropriate expression

[Zatman]

Van Aanholt tweeted the abuse he received last night, not surprising it was connected to gambling

[villa4europe]

22 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Van Aanholt tweeted the abuse he received last night, not surprising it was connected to gambling

Saw it this morning 

A guy messaging him complaining that him missing a 1v1 lost him a bet with then some racial abuse thrown in

Sounded like being a racist was the tip of his very shitty iceberg 

[sne]

Potential scandal in La Liga, on top of the racism incident where the Vanlencia players claim the ref threatened them with yellow or red cards if they did not return to the pitch after they walked off the pitch following the  racial slurs against Mouctar Diakhaby from Cadiz player  Juan Cala.

Quote

"Players, forced to play under threat of penalty"

Valencia, in its statement, points out that the referee "conveyed to the players" the potential consequences of not playing, a conversation denied by the Technical Referees Committee.

 

Official statement from Valencia

1. Mouctar Diakhaby has today become another victim of racism in football.
2. After suffering an intolerable racist insult, you have still received the yellow card for protesting.
3. We are proud of the support Diakhaby has received from his teammates and the decision to leave the field en bloc.
4. We trust that this event will be investigated.
5. To our disappointment, no decision was made.
6. The Club at no time urges its players to return to the pitch. The referee conveys to the players the potential consequences of not returning to the field of play. The players, forced to play under threat of penalty after the racist insults and the yellow card to Diakhaby, decide to return to the field of play.
7. Diakhaby has asked his teammates to go back out onto the pitch and fight. His colleagues have respected his will.
8. What happened today should never happen again in football.
9. Valencia CF is against racism and expresses its full support for Diakhaby. Today is a sad day for our sport.
10. What we have lost today is not a match, today the respect and spirit of football and sport has been lost.

https://as.com/futbol/2021/04/04/primera/1617571152_432562.html

[Rino8]

He's now come out and said its all lies, despite the fact there is clear audio of his racist comment.

Even hitting them with the 'I have black friends' line.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Rino8

[Zatman]

UEFA have provisionally suspended the Slavia defender from the Rangers clash. This is a dangerous precedent they have set as whether he did say it or not there is only the word of mouth proof and no actual evidence

[Keyblade]

Davinson Sanchez was racially abused a couple of days ago after their draw with Newcastle. To the point the official Spurs account had to show him support. How sad is that? It's never right, but it takes a special type of asshole to do it to their own player. We're seeing it more and more.

[Mic09]

On 05/04/2021 at 11:28, sne said:

Potential scandal in La Liga, on top of the racism incident where the Vanlencia players claim the ref threatened them with yellow or red cards if they did not return to the pitch after they walked off the pitch following the  racial slurs against Mouctar Diakhaby from Cadiz player  Juan Cala.

https://as.com/futbol/2021/04/04/primera/1617571152_432562.html

It's a dangerous precedent. Let's say (and this will happen eventually) a player claims that they have been racially abused and the team walk off.

It then turns out there has not been such abuse, or it's impossible to prove there was. 

Can a team simply walk off the pitch because they felt they have been done wrong and not face any consequence? 

Maybe a team should be able to walk off (if they feel like doing so, good on them) but they forfeit the game as a result of it?

Good luck UEFA with figuring that out.

[bannedfromHandV]

It’s not enough for Facebook and Instagram to just remove accounts, they need to be passing the details of those accounts on to the police who in turn, need to be setting up a team/dept to specifically deal with this type of crime (and can therefore build specialised approaches for pinpointing the culprits).

I think in order to turn the tide on this in some respects it needs to be treated like speeding has been, with an opportunity to attend an awareness course for the first offence before fines kick in, I think a penalty-points system for being able to access the internet could also be introduced though much more difficult to martial of course.

It would also be interesting to see where this abuse is coming from, at the moment a story breaks about a player receiving abuse or silly images or whatever it may be and immediately you jump to assuming it’s the classic British knuckledragging shaved head dickhead but perhaps it’s not, perhaps it’s over-entitled public schoolboys, perhaps it’s coming from overseas or rival fans masquerading as supporters of the club that player plays for. 

It amazes me that we still don’t have a grip on any of that but Facebook/Instagram can show me adverts for certain products just because I mentioned it in a conversation a few days prior.

#priorities

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

This is going to sound weird, but at the end of the day, racism is good for these platforms, which is why they barely deal with it. Whereas say the financial implications of people uploading football highlights mean they will create ways to take them down much more easily or even automatically. They can bloviate all they like about equality and fairness, and how they're committed to stamping out this vile abuse, but they're multi-billions companies, all they care about is making money.

And just to explain my thinking on this, when a player gets racially abused and it's reported on, what's right there in the headline and throughout the article? It's their company name. When players get the racial abuse, what do they do with it? They post it to Instagram/Twitter. When people are outraged about the abuse, what do they do? They take to Twitter or Instagram, they like, share and comment on the original post, do the same to other posts on the subject and post their own thoughts on how wrong it is, and demand that something is done about it. Or, if they're a clearing in the woods, throw more abuse hoping that their's will be the next one shared and seen by the world.

What don't people do? Stop using the platforms that enable this abuse. All anyone does when this happens is give these companies loads of national/international advertising and drive engagement on their platforms, all for free!

You'd think this negative press would affect their stock price at least, but Facebook hit it's all time high this week, and the only two times Twitter had a higher share price was a couple months after going public before it halved in 2014, and a couple months ago when they hit their all time high. If it's not hurting them financially, they don't care.

Then a couple of months ago, Facebook announced tougher measures would be taken, why? Because a week earlier the government mentioned the posiiblity of bringing in fines that could amount to billions of pounds and possibly even criminal sanctions for the higher ups. Suddenly there was a financial threat to it, and they started to take it seriously.

It's why I personally find the solution of requiring an ID to sign up so annoying, because it lets these companies off the hook and allows them to pretend that there just wasn't anything they could do about it, but then want everyone to ignore that you can get banned from Twitter for calling someone a word removed, because calling someone a word removed doesn't generate news headlines or cause an outpouring of support on their platforms.

And if anyone's thinking why would these companies that often express socially liberal views possbily accept something like racism on their platform, just remember that Facebook allowed unhinged conspiracy theories to be purposefully targeted at sections of it's user base for years, purely because it drove engagement and made them money. I hope the government weren't bluffing with those fines, though I'm not holding out much hope, as it's the only real way to deal with this, to hit these companies financially until they take it seriously.

*takes tin foil hat off*

[Villaphan04]

On 06/04/2021 at 10:22, Zatman said:

UEFA have provisionally suspended the Slavia defender from the Rangers clash. This is a dangerous precedent they have set as whether he did say it or not there is only the word of mouth proof and no actual evidence

If I read that correctly, the rangers defender also got charged as well. 

 

14 hours ago, Mic09 said:

It's a dangerous precedent. Let's say (and this will happen eventually) a player claims that they have been racially abused and the team walk off.

It then turns out there has not been such abuse, or it's impossible to prove there was. 

Can a team simply walk off the pitch because they felt they have been done wrong and not face any consequence? 

Maybe a team should be able to walk off (if they feel like doing so, good on them) but they forfeit the game as a result of it?

Good luck UEFA with figuring that out.

This is exactly the problem that will be faced in the near future. Getting evidence is key and usually it is very hard to get properly

[tomav84]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-56730629

Quote

A man has been charged after West Bromwich Albion footballer Romaine Sawyers was racially abused online.

49 years old!!