Racism in Football

[TrentVilla]

2 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Hopefully it's this:

The biggest hero in this clip is the third athlete,  remarkable story about him, if you don’t know about it its worth looking up.

[Keyblade]

2 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

The biggest hero in this clip is the third athletic, remarkable story about him, if you don’t know about it its worth looking up.

Yeah I was reading earlier that he actually suggested the 2nd athlete borrow the first's glove (as he forgot his pair). He then became a pariah in his home country, Australia naturally. Quite crazy considering 1968 was within living memory. The country gave him an apology in 2012, when he was already dead.

A couple of quotes about this incident caught my eye:

Quote

"If I win, I am American, not a black American. But if I did something bad, then they would say I am a Negro. We are black and we are proud of being black. Black America will understand what we did tonight."

This one's remarkable because I remember seeing almost identical quotes from Romelu Lukaku and Mesut Ozil, which shows how relevant this issue still is today.

This one just made me face palm:

Quote

A spokesman for the IOC said Smith and Carlos's actions were "a deliberate and violent breach of the fundamental principles of the Olympic spirit."[3] Brundage, who was president of the United States Olympic Committee in 1936, had made no objections against Nazi salutes during the Berlin Olympics. He argued that the Nazi salute, being a national salute at the time, was acceptable in a competition of nations, while the athletes' salute was not of a nation and therefore unacceptable.

And of course:

Quote

Brundage had been accused of being one of the United States' most prominent Nazi sympathisers even after the outbreak of the Second World War,[14][15] and his removal as president of the IOC had been one of the three stated objectives of the Olympic Project for Human Rights.[16]

 

[Xela]

2 hours ago, a m ole said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56124688

Why are there so few BAME players in English women's football?

  Reveal hidden contents

At the Women's World Cup in 2019, Stokes and Parris were the only non-white players in the England squad. In the men's World Cup squad the year before, there were 13 players of colour - celebrated as "representing modern, multicultural England".

While women's football has grown exponentially in the past few years, the number of black and mixed-race players in an England squad for a major tournament has decreased from six in 2007 to two in 2019.

The statistics on BAME representation in English football can be difficult to pin down. Indeed, the football authorities faced criticism last year for not monitoring the number of elite players in the men's or women's games. 

But Manchester City and England forward Raheem Sterling, speaking to the BBC's Newsnight programme last year about the lack of BAME coaches and leaders in English football, indicated that "there's something like 500 players in the Premier League and a third of them are black". 

That figure was backed up when Paul Elliott, chairman of the FA's inclusion advisory board, spoke to the BBC around the same time.

It is estimated, though, that the proportion of BAME players in the Women's Super League is lower - at between 10-15% BAME players in the WSL.

"Right now, to be honest, it's not inclusive enough. And it's not diverse enough, and we know it," said Baroness Sue Campbell, the Football Association's director of women's football.

Accessibility & opportunity 

Aston Villa's Anita Asante, 35, who has 71 England caps, says one reason there are so few BAME players in elite women's football is inaccessibility. 

"It's getting more difficult to get the right accessibility for disadvantaged groups of young girls, especially in inner cities," she told BBC Sport.

"When you're seeing so few [BAME players] making it to the elite level you have to question if the system is really working. Does it need reviewing to find where the gaps are?"

Kay Cossington, the FA's head of women's player development and talent, told She Kicks magazine in 2020 that "inclusivity was compromised as we attempted to turn more professional. We had 52 centres of excellence; that was too many for the depth of talent at the time". 

With 52 centres reduced to 30 - and with many of the centres that remained based in rural areas - a lot of the BAME players from big cities were travelling two or three hours to get to training. Millwall, for example, had trained in Lewisham and Southwark, but moved to Bromley where facilities were better. 

Adekite Fatuga-Dada is Watford's longest-serving women's player

When Watford forward Adekite Fatuga-Dada was 16, she was invited to an England Under-19s camp at St George's Park in Staffordshire, 144 miles from London. But her mum, a single parent, was working on the day of the camp, so Fatuga-Dada had no way of getting there.

Her mum asked the FA if they could help her daughter - then playing for Arsenal's Under-17s - with transportation. The FA told her to ask one of the Arsenal Women first-team players for a lift to the camp. 

"I didn't feel comfortable to go and ask an Arsenal Ladies player who I've idolised growing up, if I could jump in the car with them," Fatuga-Dada, now 24, told BBC Sport.

She added: "I was so young and [my mum] didn't want me to travel on my own, which is understandable. But I don't think it's fair to ask every girl to do that. There should be more help.

"It was a very exciting time for me, I was on cloud nine as a young player. But I never went [to the camp] and I haven't been back with England since."

What is the FA doing about it? 

The England squad after the 2019 Women's World Cup third place play-off defeat to Sweden

Baroness Sue Campbell says the FA wouldn't let what happened to Fatuga-Dada occur now. 

"We'd find a way now," the FA's director of women's football told BBC Sport.

"When I first came into the FA five years ago, there were very few people focused on the women's game. Now we have somebody in every division of the football association with a key leading focus on the women's game."

Campbell says one challenge is not having the resources of the men's game. But she says that now women's football has the "volume through participation", the FA needs to redesign the pathway for its emerging talent. 

The FA is also working with the EFL Trust to carry out more talent identification work in inner-city areas and has provided scholarships for players who need financial support. It says it is already seeing more ethnic diversity in the England youth teams. 

The teenage drop-off

The FA also has an Asian Women's Advisory Group, and through its Wildcats programmefor girls aged 5-11, it has trained coaches from the communities it is targeting - so that girls have relatable role models. There is also a new teenage equivalent programme.

But when the drop-off rate from sport for teenage girls is so high anyway, what is being done to make sure all the FA's work with youth is translating into the elite level of football?

"We've developed a programme for clubs, which is about helping clubs think about what it means to be girl-friendly and inclusive," Campbell said.

"It doesn't just mean you run a women's team. It means the whole ambience of who greets them, what the changing rooms look like, what is going to help them come along, feel that they belong, and that they're part of it.

"If you go that first time and it feels uncomfortable, most girls don't have the confidence to go back again." 

So is it just a case of this work trickling down and waiting for the impact to be made? Or does the problem run deeper than that? 

The perception of women's football, post Sampson 

Eniola Aluko spoke to the BBC about Sampson claims in August

There are other issues for women's football that are unrelated to the talent pathway. In 2017, the FA apologised to England players Eniola Aluko and Drew Spence for racially discriminatory remarks made by sacked England women's boss Mark Sampson. It was a high-profile case that made headlines for more than a year.

Villa's Asante, who was playing in the squad at the time, said: "For young girls from similar backgrounds watching that, they would have probably been disheartened to have seen the negative impact it had on those individuals and also the actions at the time of the squad.

"That perception or lack of support for the person experiencing a form of discrimination or racism to the nation publicly, is not going to have a positive image or impact to young people. 

"That's why it's important that the FA and us as players talk about these experiences, to try to improve the system so that it can be better for the next generation." 

• 'We have to do more' - WSL players

Asante says that since the global resurgence of the Black Lives Matter movement in 2020, her team-mates have reflected on the situation.

"I've had players that I know reach out to me personally and apologise," she said. "Not because they did something directly bad, but because they didn't reach out or they didn't support myself and those players at the time."

'A white space' and stereotypes

Fatuga-Dada says another problem for young players of colour is stereotypes. 

"It is very much a white space," she told BBC Sport. 

"A lot of black players that I know would be told the reason why they weren't getting picked for squads is because of things like attitude. I guess now you look at it and say that's a stereotype.

"It was tough - we were kids, and you can't argue with the manager or say 'I don't have a bad attitude, I'm not what you think I am'.

"It was so easy to discourage certain players from playing, because they were just told 'this is what you are'. 

"If there are not more black, Asian or minority players at a grassroots level, we can't expect them at the top. If they do have the talent, why are we not trying to encourage them to reach those heights?" 

If you can't see it, you can't be it 

Asante says the lack of representation - both on the team and behind the scenes - is another challenge, especially as the number of BAME players has decreased in the past few years.

"From leadership to organisation management, the lack of representation is a barrier," she said.

"People don't have that connection necessarily to the game, because they don't see people that look like them or have their shared lived experience."

Asante remembers England legend Rachel Yankey leading a training session when she was a teenager at Arsenal, and says it made a huge difference having someone she could relate to.

She said: "She comes from a similar background - and all of these connections that we could build made me feel like this was a space that I really wanted to be in."

This article confused me a little. I’m obviously fully behind equality, but I’m struggling to see what this article is finding issue in. 1 of 21 of the England squad is BAME? That’s roughly the same as the demographic of the general public. The proportion of BAME players in the WSL is 1 in over 7.

Surely the answer to the article is that there isn’t and they’re doing a great job of representation?

 

What am I missing here?

They're just trying to find issues. 2 BAME players who would have been in the squad are injured. 

Elite squads should be picked on merit, nothing else. As long as people as certain that is happening then I don't see an issue. 

 

[Keyblade]

11 minutes ago, Xela said:

They're just trying to find issues. 2 BAME players who would have been in the squad are injured. 

Elite squads should be picked on merit, nothing else. As long as people as certain that is happening then I don't see an issue. 

 

The playing side of football is the closest thing to a meritocracy the game has. There are some club politics involved but thankfully some of the other factors that hinder representation in other walks of life don't seem to be present for players.

But management? Whoo boy, that's a different story.

[Stevo985]

6 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

The biggest hero in this clip is the third athlete,  remarkable story about him, if you don’t know about it its worth looking up.

I don't agree that he's the biggest hero.

But it is a very interesting story

[TrentVilla]

7 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't agree that he's the biggest hero.

But it is a very interesting story

What Norman did was certainly more selfless and I’d argue more courageous than his two fellow athlete’s, but I was quite deliberate in saying biggest as all three were heroic.

Norman’s actions though came at huge personal cost, it cost him his place at the next Olympics and his entire reputation and career yet he stood firm in his stance. He was invited to condemn the actions of his fellow athletes in return for a pardon but refused which cost him any hope of a career in the sport or part in his home nation hosting the games. He wasn’t even invited to the Sydney Olympics despite being their best ever sprinter.

He formed a life time friendship with Smith and Carlos and stood with them not just on that podium but for the rest of his life at immense personal cost. So I stand by the view that he was the most heroic of the three.

[Keyblade]

10 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

What Norman did was certainly more selfless and I’d argue more courageous than his two fellow athlete’s, but I was quite deliberate in saying biggest as all three were heroic.

Norman’s actions though came at huge personal cost, it cost him his place at the next Olympics and his entire reputation and career yet he stood firm in his stance. He was invited to condemn the actions of his fellow athletes in return for a pardon but refused which cost him any hope of a career in the sport or part in his home nation hosting the games. He wasn’t even invited to the Sydney Olympics despite being their best ever sprinter.

He formed a life time friendship with Smith and Carlos and stood with them not just on that podium but for the rest of his life at immense personal cost. So I stand by the view that he was the most heroic of the three.

I think the other 2 got largely the same ride as he did with regards to the Olympics (they managed to forge short-lived careers in football though). Ironically the US invited him to Sydney when Australia didn't. They also had to go back to being black in America in 1968, where their own sports media referred to them like this:

Quote

"a couple of black-skinned storm troopers" who were "ignoble," "juvenile," and "unimaginative."

 

[TrentVilla]

5 hours ago, Keyblade said:

I think the other 2 got largely the same ride as he did with regards to the Olympics (they managed to forge short-lived careers in football though). Ironically the US invited him to Sydney when Australia didn't. They also had to go back to being black in America in 1968, where their own sports media referred to them like this:

 

Wow that is a horrific quote, good job things have changed in the U.S. now though... right...?

[Stevo985]

On 20/02/2021 at 01:09, TrentVilla said:

What Norman did was certainly more selfless and I’d argue more courageous than his two fellow athlete’s, but I was quite deliberate in saying biggest as all three were heroic.

Norman’s actions though came at huge personal cost, it cost him his place at the next Olympics and his entire reputation and career yet he stood firm in his stance. He was invited to condemn the actions of his fellow athletes in return for a pardon but refused which cost him any hope of a career in the sport or part in his home nation hosting the games. He wasn’t even invited to the Sydney Olympics despite being their best ever sprinter.

He formed a life time friendship with Smith and Carlos and stood with them not just on that podium but for the rest of his life at immense personal cost. So I stand by the view that he was the most heroic of the three.

I know all this, but the other two paid the same cost. Everything that happened to Normal happened to them too but worse. And they were by far the biggest “villains” because of it. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Stevo985

[bannedfromHandV]

On 19/02/2021 at 21:58, Keyblade said:

The playing side of football is the closest thing to a meritocracy the game has. There are some club politics involved but thankfully some of the other factors that hinder representation in other walks of life don't seem to be present for players.

But management? Whoo boy, that's a different story.

I agree with all you’ve written but I would still like to see actual data on this, how many qualified (BAME) applicants there are per position, perhaps run it for a year and disclose as public information to start getting a real grip on it.

If for every football management role that comes up less than 10% of applicants are BAME (for example) then perhaps it’s not as surprising that there aren’t many successful applications - then you move into analysing the qualifications of those hired vs those not hired.

Of course, if applications from BAME people are low then you move on to working out why that is and yes, it more than likely will boil down to a degree of racial bias but the problem needs to be pinpointed and not just generalised - if the problem is a low proportion of applications or qualifications then set up a programme to concentrate on getting that right first.

This interests me because I work in recruitment (obviously nothing like football management) and for years we’ve actively tried to redress certain imbalances in diversity, female representation and BAME related targets primarily and it’s not easy, and I know we’ve approached it without any intentional bias.

[villa4europe]

On 20/02/2021 at 02:09, TrentVilla said:

What Norman did was certainly more selfless and I’d argue more courageous than his two fellow athlete’s, but I was quite deliberate in saying biggest as all three were heroic.

Norman’s actions though came at huge personal cost, it cost him his place at the next Olympics and his entire reputation and career yet he stood firm in his stance. He was invited to condemn the actions of his fellow athletes in return for a pardon but refused which cost him any hope of a career in the sport or part in his home nation hosting the games. He wasn’t even invited to the Sydney Olympics despite being their best ever sprinter.

He formed a life time friendship with Smith and Carlos and stood with them not just on that podium but for the rest of his life at immense personal cost. So I stand by the view that he was the most heroic of the three.

I think they were pall bearers at his funeral

The whole thing deserves a good documentary, surprised espn didn't cover it for 30 for 30

[villa4europe]

On 20/02/2021 at 08:21, TrentVilla said:

Wow that is a horrific quote, good job things have changed in the U.S. now though... right...?

Yeah now it would be seen as disrespecting the troops... 

Same thing different excuse to vilify it

[PaulC]

On 19/02/2021 at 18:41, TrentVilla said:

The biggest hero in this clip is the third athlete,  remarkable story about him, if you don’t know about it its worth looking up.

I must admit I'd never heard of him but having looked it up a very moving story. 

[Zatman]

England Womens team win 6-0 and The Guardian have an issue that its an all white team. I dont see the issue at all, if England lost 6-0 and had the best players unavailable because they arent white then we have an issue. Just causing an issue to make a story

This attitude actually hinders the racism issue in football

[Keyblade]

17 minutes ago, Zatman said:

England Womens team win 6-0 and The Guardian have an issue that its an all white team. I dont see the issue at all, if England lost 6-0 and had the best players unavailable because they arent white then we have an issue. Just causing an issue to make a story

This attitude actually hinders the racism issue in football

Sometimes I think these kind of articles are a ruse to get people turned off from anti-racism activism. 

[icouldtelltheworld]

33 minutes ago, Zatman said:

England Womens team win 6-0 and The Guardian have an issue that its an all white team. I dont see the issue at all, if England lost 6-0 and had the best players unavailable because they arent white then we have an issue. Just causing an issue to make a story

This attitude actually hinders the racism issue in football

Guardian journalists doing Guardian things 

[Stevo985]

I think that's harsh. I've read the piece and it's not really a criticism of the squad that played or who picked them, it's more a piece exploring why there isn't more diversity in women's football. To me it wasn't blaming it on racism it was trying to explain why there are less opportunities or interest from BAME women to get involved with football.

[Keyblade]

 

Interesting to hear Clarence Seedorf on the subject of black managers and opportunities. Basically saying what Sol Campbell was ridiculed for saying for a decade or so.

Quote

"I played 12 years in Italy: after [coaching] Milan, despite having done a great job, I received no calls," he told Gazzetta dello Sport. "Holland is my country, yet again, zero calls.

"What are the selection criteria? Why do great champions have no chance in Europe where they wrote pages of football history?

"Why does Vieira have to go to New York and Henry to Canada? [Patrick Vieira managed New York City FC between 2016-18 while Thierry Henry is manager of MLS side Montreal].

"For coaches there are no equal opportunities: if we look at the figures, there are no Black people in the positions of greatest power in football.

"It's something that concerns the whole of society. Everyone, especially those who can change things, must feel the responsibility to create a meritocratic world and keep all the doors open if they aspire to excellence.

"The best results can come from diversity."

Here's a video of him echoing the same sentiments a couple of months back:

 

[TrentVilla]

On 21/02/2021 at 10:21, Stevo985 said:

I know all this, but the other two paid the same cost. Everything that happened to Normal happened to them too but worse. And they were by far the biggest “villains” because of it. 

Yes they did but in my opinion and it is only my opinion they became hero’s to millions at home and around the word. I personally think standing with them, for what at the time was their cause was incredibly brave and selfless.

Now someone taking that course of action would be applauded, hell it would be expected actually. Back then he made himself a pariah in his own community and nation.

It was a remarkably brave and selfless act.

That doesn’t in any way detract from the actions of or the respect for the two American’s I just think he was even braver.

[TrentVilla]

1 minute ago, Keyblade said:

 

Interesting to hear Clarence Seedorf on the subject of black managers and opportunities. Basically saying what Sol Campbell was ridiculed for saying for a decade or so.

Here's a video of him echoing the same sentiments a couple of months back:

 

Playing devils advocate though Viera and Henry are two terrible examples. Henry got the Monaco job and could have had the Villa job so that is really no different to Lampard or Rooney. While Viera only went to the US as it was all part of the Man City deal, he then got a job in Europe.

There is without doubt an under representation in management and it Is hard to make any sort of case that conscious or unconscious bias and racism is at its heart but don’t use crap examples to make the point.

It is like sighting John Barnes or Paul Ince in this country as examples.