Dean Smith

[Demitri_C]

I just read we have dropped 25 points from a winning position. That's ridiculous and explains why we are having the problems we are

 

[abdulaziz1]

17 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I just read we have dropped 25 points from a winning position. That's ridiculous and explains why we are having the problems we are

 

This season we’re back to the old Villa we know. Losing from winning positions, last minutes goal conceded and the liability at the back.

[A'Villan]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its interesting how we differ in our views, but i would be happy for anyone to sit next to me in the stadium to point out my observations.

Dean Smith himself was disappointed in the performance of Hourihane and MCGinn so i would have had they pressed, he would have been happy.

I have just asked 2 other fans who were at the game like me and they said pressing are you joking.

I have to respect everyones views its their interpretation.

I am not trying to be difficult, but Football is a simple game......the teams with the best players usually win....but that interpretation of "best" opens up another far searching debate.

My stance is simply this......2 goals is enough to win a game handsomely and to do so and not concede means you will win the league.....there is plenty of pitch craft both offensively and defensively to entertain the fans....the name of the game is points, thats what the competitions demand.

We concede far,far too easily and too readily......that has to stop.

quick frankly, i don't care that much, what style we play .....i just want winning football.

but when a player like Hourihane shadows the both goal scorers Eze and Freeman without getting ANY physical contact on the player, i despair.....not a nudge, not even leaning in, not a tackle.....no challenge whatsoever.

off the ball we are totally Lightweight.

Hourihane was responsible for standing  off for Lolley's goal too. So I'm not totally opposed to your observations.

Obviously there have been moments where either the flaws of the system we employ are effectively exploited or we make an obvious individual error which leads to the concession of a goal.

I think if you read my posts carefully I am not determined to see a specific style either. I enjoy the the craft for all the skill involved and enjoy learning the dynamics and facets which make up the spectacle. There are however some consistencies in the sport, much like anything in life, patterns and cycles of behaviour occur at times and you can come to a better understanding with careful observation and consideration.

If I was to have a preference for how I want to see football played at Villa it would be in line with this quote:

"Offense is the best form of defense" Because if you are in control of the ball and the scoreboard simultaneously, then you've won as long as that remains true.

But then again I appreciate this famous sports quote too:

"Offense sells tickets. Defense wins championships." Because if you can stop anyone from finding their rhythm and setting the tempo in a game then by default you are also creating opportunities for your team to create scoring opportunities by the change of possession.

My favourite two are these ones and the only philosophies I think are true:

"It's amazing what can be accomplished when you don't care who gets the credit."

"Hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard"

I quite enjoy reading your perspectives on the game but I am again failing to see where Smith is going so wrong in the areas you mention when you look at the little things which make up the big picture. I think the frustration that comes with a disappointing outcome can have an adverse effect on \ability to come to conclusions that remain impartial.

A goal only takes a matter of seconds to go in and yet it often is defining in peoples perspective on how a match played out. I may be off the mark but I suspect that the pressing we did put on QPR was overlooked due to the concession of goals which made other efforts seem inconsequential. As I said earlier the math would indicate that my observations are in line with the events that took place over the 90 minutes.

Under Smith, on average, we are losing games at a rate that only Wolves, Cardiff and Fulham achieved last season. We are also keeping a clean sheet in over a third of our fixtures. You talk about playing winning football and not conceding as a discipline, Smith is probably deserving of a bit more credit than you give him in my opinion.

Bruce was promoted automatically with a total of 79 points and a GD of just +9 with Hull, that's 20 points less than Wolves 99 point haul last season. It's also less points than what he achieved with Villa last campaign. As I said earlier and elsewhere, 18 of his 24 victories in that season with Hull came from 1-0 wins. That's a brand of winning football right there.

Personally I enjoy aesthetically pleasing football more than I do winning itself. Beauty being in the eye of the beholder. To me aesthetically pleasing means something along the lines of a display of skill that can make someone with no expertise or knowledge of the art stand up and shout praise or at the very least enjoy a moment of appreciation whereby they are engaged with the act as much as the person performing it. Something along those lines.

 

 

[Zatman]

33 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I just read we have dropped 25 points from a winning position. That's ridiculous and explains why we are having the problems we are

 

Games we lost a lead to lose points:

Ipswich

Reading

Brentford

Preston (home)

Millwall

Norwich

Forest

West Brom

Leeds

Preston(away)

QPR

 

Games we took points from losing positions:

Hull

Wigan

Brentford

Blackburn

Preston

Bristol City

blues

Forest

Stoke 

QPR

[Demitri_C]

Just now, Zatman said:

Games we lost a lead to lose points:

Ipswich

Reading

Brentford

Preston (home)

Millwall

Norwich

Forest

West Brom

Leeds

Preston(away)

QPR

 

Games we took points from losing positions:

Hull

Wigan

Brentford

Blackburn

Preston

Bristol City

blues

Forest

Stoke 

QPR

That's where we are where we are. We should have a lot more teams at the bottom or on neither option.

[Zatman]

We dropped 25 from winning position and recovered 19 though a lot of it was down to individual errors that cost us a lot of points from senior players

[TRO]

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

Hourihane was responsible for standing  off for Lolley's goal too. So I'm not totally opposed to your observations.

Obviously there have been moments where either the flaws of the system we employ are effectively exploited or we make an obvious individual error which leads to the concession of a goal.

I think if you read my posts carefully I am not determined to see a specific style either. I enjoy the the craft for all the skill involved and enjoy learning the dynamics and facets which make up the spectacle. There are however some consistencies in the sport, much like anything in life, patterns and cycles of behaviour occur at times and you can come to a better understanding with careful observation and consideration.

If I was to have a preference for how I want to see football played at Villa it would be in line with this quote:

"Offense is the best form of defense" Because if you are in control of the ball and the scoreboard simultaneously, then you've won as long as that remains true.

But then again I appreciate this famous sports quote too:

"Offense sells tickets. Defense wins championships." Because if you can stop anyone from finding their rhythm and setting the tempo in a game then by default you are also creating opportunities for your team to create scoring opportunities by the change of possession.

My favourite two are these ones and the only philosophies I think are true:

"It's amazing what can be accomplished when you don't care who gets the credit."

"Hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard"

I quite enjoy reading your perspectives on the game but I am again failing to see where Smith is going so wrong in the areas you mention when you look at the little things which make up the big picture. I think the frustration that comes with a disappointing outcome can have an adverse effect on \ability to come to conclusions that remain impartial.

A goal only takes a matter of seconds to go in and yet it often is defining in peoples perspective on how a match played out. I may be off the mark but I suspect that the pressing we did put on QPR was overlooked due to the concession of goals which made other efforts seem inconsequential. As I said earlier the math would indicate that my observations are in line with the events that took place over the 90 minutes.

Under Smith, on average, we are losing games at a rate that only Wolves, Cardiff and Fulham achieved last season. We are also keeping a clean sheet in over a third of our fixtures. You talk about playing winning football and not conceding as a discipline, Smith is probably deserving of a bit more credit than you give him in my opinion.

Bruce was promoted automatically with a total of 79 points and a GD of just +9 with Hull, that's 20 points less than Wolves 99 point haul last season. It's also less points than what he achieved with Villa last campaign. As I said earlier and elsewhere, 18 of his 24 victories in that season with Hull came from 1-0 wins. That's a brand of winning football right there.

Personally I enjoy aesthetically pleasing football more than I do winning itself. Beauty being in the eye of the beholder. To me aesthetically pleasing means something along the lines of a display of skill that can make someone with no expertise or knowledge of the art stand up and shout praise or at the very least enjoy a moment of appreciation whereby they are engaged with the act as much as the person performing it. Something along those lines.

 

 

I too enjoy your posts and the quotes you make have validity.

the one I like was from Bill Shankly, when he said " you can't just go out and start spraying the ball all over the pitch, you have to win the right, to play football"

now we all know there are exceptions to every rule, but I know where he was coming from and personally I agree with him.

IMO we are far too open and its not JUST the back four either.

I particularly like the one where you quote " Hard work beats Talent, when talent fails to work hard" that is oh so true of some of our players.....Kodja as an example has a bundle of talent, but goes missing in terms of hard work and application, in contrast Tammy is still learning but works his socks off...his hard work gets him in to positions that Kodj would fail to get.

I think there are teams in this league with less talent than our players individually, but there application and work, negates that.

I too enjoy the overall spectacle of Deans philosophy.......but its like when you was a kid and the neighbour give you a load of sweets only for your Mom to take them off you.....what a bloody let down.

I can't see much point in scoring, if its going to be negated so easily...that is not my kind of enjoyment, it teases my emotions too much.

I think its harder to score than concede and that's another thing that ****es me off, we seem to sweat buckets to score, only to lie down and have our belly tickled by conceding.

Its early days for Dean and I will be interested in seeing who he brings in, but in my view as its been for the games since the Albion, there is no future in that.

I may be voicing a different opinion if we can get players in, who can get their foot in....John McGinn can't do it all as it started to show against QPR.

Ps I get football satisfaction watching the skills of a good defender too, the reading of the game, the anticipation, the combative skills, the will to win, the organisation etc.

Edited January 2, 2019 by TRO

[DaveAV1]

4 hours ago, Stratvillan said:

Favourite quote of the year. End of discussion. 

It’s only the second day of the year, but thanks!

[KenjiOgiwara]

So much position talk on this thread I am getting randy.  

[Tomaszk]

Four points dropped the last two games.

Deano has to find a way to get wins in games like that I'm afraid.

[romavillan]

14 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Four points dropped the last two games.

Deano has to find a way to get wins in games like that I'm afraid.

Well, first he has to sort out the squad, so this window a summer and a preseason. Then we could start making demands, we were amazed at how thin we were at the back when the season started, loads of people said it would be madness to try and go a full season with what we had at the back. Guess what, those omnishambolic pigeons are home to roost, not Dean Smith's fault. We can still make play offs this season which given the colossal fuckup of the summer will do for me. The club looks to be heading in the right direction from the top level to the coaching and the recruitment. Bad results don't change that, and they come after some very good results through a really tough run.
 

[DaveAV1]

12 minutes ago, romavillan said:

Well, first he has to sort out the squad, so this window a summer and a preseason. Then we could start making demands, we were amazed at how thin we were at the back when the season started, loads of people said it would be madness to try and go a full season with what we had at the back. Guess what, those omnishambolic pigeons are home to roost, not Dean Smith's fault. We can still make play offs this season which given the colossal fuckup of the summer will do for me. The club looks to be heading in the right direction from the top level to the coaching and the recruitment. Bad results don't change that, and they come after some very good results through a really tough run.
 

This. 

[Tomaszk]

18 minutes ago, romavillan said:

Well, first he has to sort out the squad, so this window a summer and a preseason. Then we could start making demands, we were amazed at how thin we were at the back when the season started, loads of people said it would be madness to try and go a full season with what we had at the back. Guess what, those omnishambolic pigeons are home to roost, not Dean Smith's fault. We can still make play offs this season which given the colossal fuckup of the summer will do for me. The club looks to be heading in the right direction from the top level to the coaching and the recruitment. Bad results don't change that, and they come after some very good results through a really tough run.
  

Bruce's whole period in charge was a disgrace. The longer we stay here, the more insane the resources he had available to him will look. 

I can't believe how quickly Smith has turned us into a football team. The points return he got picking up off Bruce's mess is fantastic.

And it's for that reason I think he's canny enough to get wins against Preston and QPR. If we can secure a play-off spot, we can get up this season. I want Smith to be in charge of building a PL squad.

[romavillan]

14 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Bruce's whole period in charge was a disgrace. The longer we stay here, the more insane the resources he had available to him will look. 

I can't believe how quickly Smith has turned us into a football team. The points return he got picking up off Bruce's mess is fantastic.

And it's for that reason I think he's canny enough to get wins against Preston and QPR. If we can secure a play-off spot, we can get up this season. I want Smith to be in charge of building a PL squad.

Totally, with autos a way off, we should be backing Smith to sort out the balance and depth to the squad as much as possible in Jan to insure a play off shot. Either way big summer, with the contracts expiring etc. 

[A'Villan]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I too enjoy your posts and the quotes you make have validity.

the one I like was from Bill Shankly, when he said " you can't just go out and start spraying the ball all over the pitch, you have to win the right, to play football"

now we all know there are exceptions to every rule, but I know where he was coming from and personally I agree with him.

IMO we are far too open and its not JUST the back four either.

I particularly like the one where you quote " Hard work beats Talent, when talent fails to work hard" that is oh so true of some of our players.....Kodja as an example has a bundle of talent, but goes missing in terms of hard work and application, in contrast Tammy is still learning but works his socks off...his hard work gets him in to positions that Kodj would fail to get.

I think there are teams in this league with less talent than our players individually, but there application and work, negates that.

I too enjoy the overall spectacle of Deans philosophy.......but its like when you was a kid and the neighbour give you a load of sweets only for your Mom to take them off you.....what a bloody let down.

I can't see much point in scoring, if its going to be negated so easily...that is not my kind of enjoyment, it teases my emotions too much.

I think its harder to score than concede and that's another thing that ****es me off, we seem to sweat buckets to score, only to lie down and have our belly tickled by conceding.

Its early days for Dean and I will be interested in seeing who he brings in, but in my view as its been for the games since the Albion, there is no future in that.

I may be voicing a different opinion if we can get players in, who can get their foot in....John McGinn can't do it all as it started to show against QPR.

Ps I get football satisfaction watching the skills of a good defender too, the reading of the game, the anticipation, the combative skills, the will to win, the organisation etc.

I know what you mean and agree regarding the work of a defender on show. A well timed slide tackle can be as heroic as a precision placed finish, just as an interception that thwarts the oppositions move and forces an error leading to a transition in play can be as visionary as a pass that puts a teammate in behind the last line of defenders and through on goal. A clearance off the goal line as exciting as an opportunistic goal from a striker being at the right place at the right time. You get the picture. The quality of a good defender that I admire most would be their tenacity or combative skills as you say. I think it's as much as an intangible skill as it is winning the contest with physicality and fitness. Take McGinn, you know that he is going to be busting a gut to be in every contest within a 500km radius (I know pitches aren't that big) at every opportunity. "For every principle there's a promise" says everything you need to know about McGinn's tenacity. On principle he gives his all to be at the contest and with that comes the promise that we are giving ourselves a chance of winning it and coming out on top. McGinn isn't even particularly athletic, he's just relentless in approach and backs himself.

Confidence is huge in sport, Grealish didn't just come in to this world dribbling at defenders for fun and weighting lead passes to perfection. He had the confidence in himself to try it out and hone it to the point where he became proficient at it. I personally was shooting 300 3pt shots per day for an extended period of time before my  shot became adequate to play semi professionally in basketball. When I started with football it took me some months but after practicing daily for at least 30-60 minutes purely at playing keep-ups I could lob it over the electrical wires that ran from the street to my house and catch it to continue the keep-ups. I was never any good at football in high school but then I'd never tried it. Once I made that commitment to practicing for so many hours I have become so familiar with the ball and it's weight that I can manipulate it well enough to play Division One futsal despite only really starting to play in my early 20's. Having played basketball since I was 5  helped because I had an idea for the various concepts that make up a team dynamic.

Which brings me (in a roundabout way) back to the topic. Dean Smith as coach and tactician. If I say we're going to counter attack and you, as my team-mate, say sure let's do it, that's our approach for today. I proceed with the plan and play a short push pass on the floor, you are expecting one long incisive pass in the air, my push pass goes to no-one and you've taken off running for a ball that will never come. We are both trying to start a counter but we are coming from different ideas of what that involves. As a result, some bloke in the crowd decides "F*** these two idiots" and starts booing. The situation stinks. Why? Not because Bloke in the crowd is bemused at the showing but because the tactics weren't specific enough to create an understanding and chemistry between us as team-mates. I have read from more than a few sources that Bruce once uttered the words 'I don't really do tactics' and I feel like that was true of his tenure because it's utter bulls***, just like some of the football he served up. Of course he does tactics. Every coach and manager has to. Whether they are any good at instilling the concepts  determines the the teams ability to function as a united whole and play with understanding that will woo the crowds as opposed to being a bunch of bozo's running one way while the ball flies the other.

It's less important a single player understand his individual role than it is the other ten men knowing what he's going to do so they can plan and act accordingly. If a group of players don't have clarity over the tactics and their role in that game-plan then it will amount to nothing and will have been a bunch of hot air thrown around the dressing room and however many hours spent in preparation will of been for nothing.

What is exciting me about Smith is that like we have both expressed, TRO. Smith has an appreciation for the usefulness of various approaches and the necessity that a team has a fundamental understanding of how each approach works so that it can employ effective tactics in accordance to the challenge to be faced.

We have already seen us adapt to the the absence of Grealish by having the midfield 3 against QPR occupy the middle third and direct play to the wide men where a combination of wall passes and overlapping allowed us to penetrate into space that might result in a chance. We also played in more long balls than we normally would due to the absence of Grealish, playing one in every six balls long to a forward or to switch the play. Usually we play less than one in ten long balls but without the skill of Jack centrally, being able to successfully link the midfield and attack or cross the play from one wing to the other required more long balls as we were without the skill to play it on the floor. Unfortunately the quality of delivery and execution in the final third was as poor as I've seen it for some time. That's an individual quality though and not an indictment on the methodology or its intent. If people can recall Bolasie's shot or cross that went out for a throw, that was basically the standard of execution in the final third or when playing in a forward. Poor.

A few small tweaks in formation and build up approach and we still managed to impose ourselves for portions of the game greater than our opponents. Even though we lacked the cutting edge to create more chances, we won nearly every battle or were equal to QPR's efforts in the other areas of the pitch.

I agree we are too vulnerable to conceding via counter attack and from errors when on the ball which afford our opponent possession in territory that allows for the transition in play to be one that leaves them with space and a defense on the back-foot. Ideal for any attacker looking to make an impact. As long as they are incisive in decision making and execute well enough, there is a high probability it will amount to a goal. So yes, this needs to be addressed if we want to gain promotion.

[srsmithusa]

10 hours ago, hippo said:

on a 'one off' - no you can't blame the manager for individual errors. However the manager needs to put a system in place to minimise such errors and keep them to the absolute minimum. Ultimately the manager is accountable for results . I accept its early days for DS  - But you can't take him out of the equation   and say "ah well Hutton "   , "ah well elmohady" 

We can and should until the first window at least.

[villalad21]

As I've said before.

Have to wait till he got a core of "his" players at the club that are suited in his football philosophy. Will take a transfer window or 2.

Won't be too critical of him this season for that exact reason. Will fully judge him next season.

[Villarocker]

7 hours ago, A'Villan said:

I watched the game too. Had a great stream which was a pleasant surprise.

I would be interested in you elaborating on how analysis conveys a contradictory message. I like to take in the game first hand most of all, analysing statistics is no where near as much fun.

However they serve a purpose, being a semi professional athlete myself I can tell you from experience that if you are not keeping checks on your development in a way that is quantifiable you are not going to improve anywhere near as much as you would by analysing your approach and technique and making adjustments accordingly. The simple task of recording how many you make against how many you take gives an indication of success rate.

I'm surprised if you didn't see our players closing down the opposition, or at least attempting to. The stats are in line with my observations from watching the game. We won 55% of duels on the floor, so I don't know how they can be 'quicker to the ball quite often'. It was us who won the contest, more often than not.

The only reason I can currently think of which would have you believe QPR 'had us floundering' is that they went 2-1 up in a game where we lacked the quality on the ball to create the goals required to overcome the two we conceded.

It's a funny old things, points of view, I agree we were awful at times, but it was on the ball that we were awful and clumsy I thought.

 

I watched the whole game too and thought that after we scored our first QPR bossed it and had the better of the chances and game right up until we equalised. We resembled the Bruce tactics after going a goal up and that worries me a lot because we simply didn't defend from the front like we should have done and, have been doing. 

Hourihane simply is not the man to be relied upon to defend our back four. I thought Thor let us down in this particular game as he should have been the one playing that role and screening the defence. 

The ball has been coming back our way far too often since the Albion game. Leeds dominated us in our half nearly all game. Preston had large spells of pressure against us too. We are struggling right now and hopefully Smith has the cure! 

[A'Villan]

5 minutes ago, villarocker said:

I watched the whole game too and thought that after we scored our first QPR bossed it and had the better of the chances and game right up until we equalised. We resembled the Bruce tactics after going a goal up and that worries me a lot because we simply didn't defend from the front like we should have done and, have been doing. 

Hourihane simply is not the man to be relied upon to defend our back four. I thought Thor let us down in this particular game as he should have been the one playing that role and screening the defence. 

The ball has been coming back our way far too often since the Albion game. Leeds dominated us in our half nearly all game. Preston had large spells of pressure against us too. We are struggling right now and hopefully Smith has the cure! 

You mean QPR bossed it up until it went 2-2? Just want to clarify.

I personally don't think any team that has 3 successful dribbles, 3 successful crosses and a long ball rate of 1 in 3 passes is ever really 'bossing' a game.

That said there were times that I was nervous for us.

I was saying in the Match Thread that people were overreacting and that we weren't out of the contest by what I was viewing. I thought we took control well before going 2-2.

[Jareth]

3 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

So much position talk on this thread I am getting randy.  

Why would you bring that son of a shumanite back?