hippo Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said: There’s this from one of the best managers in the world. Then there’s this from Tim Sherwood outrageous ....Smith hasnt been here long enough to wave his arms about...stupidity to think otherwise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New_Hope Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 The system we are trying to implement has been and will continue to be fine IMO. To say it ins't working when we have had more clean sheets in a similar amount of games under DS than SB doesn't really agree with your analysis. No matter what system you play, certain factors in the games that were quoted as being 'not good enough' have not been taken into account. Such as: a goalkeeper caught out of position for a long range shot v Forest or not being able to command his area for crosses etc. Fullbacks being culpable for needless penalties given away or gifting the opposition a chance to score through poor positioning. A referee and linesman that couldn't see the infringement that 30k others and TV cameras could see etc. etc. Now I'm not saying that individual errors/poor decisions will stop once DS has got in players of his ilk but I suspect that we will be more compact and stronger defensively as a team once they are without losing out attacking wise. One thing that has surely been highlighted in the last few matches is that we are desperate for a specialized DCM and another ACM as without both of these positions being filled with adequate players recently , we have suffered. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pimlico_Villa said: Have you not for one moment considered that it might not just be a personnel issue, per se, and that maybe it could just be the obvious downside of a (naively) over-expansive style? I would argue that a back four comprised of Chester and Tuenzebe, albeit with full backs playing out of position, is still competent enough not to concede 5 goals at Home against a team unlikely to be challenging for automatics. Add to that the fact that we have one of the world’s greatest ever defenders with us day to day on the training pitch and that players can, beleive it or not, actually be coached, then we should have conceded less. Moreover, even if it was overwhelmingly a personnel issue as you claim, the system could have been tweaked to compensate: for example, playing a flatter, more padded out midfield that makes us tighter and less exposed. The players benaeath the ones you mention are still competent enough to play at this level and not concede so much as they played last season - its the system and tactics that have hurt us. Just ask fans of teams that we’ve played. I know certain people on here won’t be able to even contemplate this, but it is there for all to see, objectively, and perfectly manifested in results and our league position. Peoples have their coping mechanisms that blind them, and and the fact that we are all enjoying scoring lots of goals for once, probably blinds people even more. That shouldn’t stop people being allowed to question obvious mis-steps, unless the rules have been updated on VT to appease some of the wannabe dictators on here. Fine for people to disagree with me, that’s the whole point of a forum like this, but some of the replies on here have been embarrassing to those that make them - i.e. New Hope For what its worth, I stil prefer this attacking style to what Bruce served up. If it was just the system we wouldn’t have had one on the worst defences in the league for Bruce’s 12 games in charge. Many of the goals we have conceded have been avoidable. Teams arent creating Shed loads of clear cut changes against us since Smith has took over. Edit: take this back. We’ve been poor at the back under Smith. Edited January 4, 2019 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: If it was just the system we wouldn’t have had one on the worst defences in the league for Bruce’s 12 games in charge. Many of the goals we have conceded have been avoidable. Teams arent creating Shed loads of clear cut changes against us since Smith has took over. ???????? Really ??? ...we actually conceeded loads of goals in the last few home games 5 v forest 3 v leeds... 2 v qpr 2 v stoke.... ...and theres been quite a few close shaves as well. Teams are creating loads of chances against us. ..and taking them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Vive_La_Villa Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, hippo said: ???????? Really ??? ...we actually conceeded loads of goals in the last few home games 5 v forest 3 v leeds... 2 v qpr 2 v stoke.... ...and theres been quite a few close shaves as well. Teams are creating loads of chances against us. ..and taking them as well. Ok fair enough, that was probably not accurate but his defensive record is still better than Bruce’s even though 2 of his favoured back 4 have missed the last 4 games. He hasn’t improved the defence but he hasn’t made it worse either. How do you explain that? Edited January 4, 2019 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villarocker Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 9 hours ago, TRO said: I think its down to how anyone wants to read it......the easy default is to say what you have said....personally, i didn't see much difference. on a slightly different topic.......I was so impressed with the physical intensity of both teams absolutely incredible....thats what i call workrate. If Dean can get our midfield / defence working that hard alone, we'll be ok. Totally agree about the workrate mate but, that's what you get when you spend hundreds of millions! I understand you could argue that any fit "athlete" should be able to use such energy accordingly but we do have Championship level players and that's what you get for your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villarocker Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 29 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: If it was just the system we wouldn’t have had one on the worst defences in the league for Bruce’s 12 games in charge. Many of the goals we have conceded have been avoidable. Teams arent creating Shed loads of clear cut changes against us since Smith has took over. BECAUSE he was left with such a shite defensive unit! If, as fans, we wanted to remain tight and guileless, we should have campaigned to keep Bruce! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villarocker Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 50 minutes ago, hippo said: outrageous ....Smith hasnt been here long enough to wave his arms about...stupidity to think otherwise. Pep's asking for energy - Sherwood is showing how to not wrap Christmas presents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villarocker Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: There’s this from one of the best managers in the world. Then there’s this from Tim Sherwood Pep's asking for energy and Sherwood is showing how not to wrap presents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Ok fair enough, that was probably not accurate but his defensive record is still better than Bruce’s even though 2 of his favoured back 4 have missed the last 4 games. He hasn’t improved the defence but he hasn’t made it worse either. How do you explain that? Explain what ? I was just responding to your point that the opposition wasnt creating many chances against us. Bruce was never mentioned when you made the above point. Edited January 4, 2019 by hippo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, villarocker said: BECAUSE he was left with such a shite defensive unit! If, as fans, we wanted to remain tight and guileless, we should have campaigned to keep Bruce! We were but those criticising Smith are suggesting the players aren’t the problem, Smiths tactics are. If that’s the case then why was the defence even worse under Bruce, one of the most defensive managers around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Just now, hippo said: Explain what ? I was just responding to your point that the opposition wasnt creating many chances against us. Fair enough. I’ve taken that back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villarocker Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: We were but those criticising Smith are suggesting the players aren’t the problem, Smiths tactics are. If that’s the case then why was the defence even worse under Bruce, one of the most defensive managers around? Smith tried to do the basics of putting players in their natural positions, which mostly worked. However,injuries have 0ut paid to that and, together with the loss of our creative threat, we're paying the price for it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, hippo said: Can someone enlighten me ...is a manager moving his arms a good thing or a bad thing ? Has to be good! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Why do people keep harping back to the Bruce days ? - He is longer our manager and is highly unlikely to ever be again. " the defence is no worse than under Bruce" "The attack is better than under Bruce" - Bruce isn't the yardstick. The Yardstick is can we score enough at one end - and keep enough out at the other end to get us promotion. Being better or worse than Bruce is almost a non issue alongside getting promoted. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: There’s this from one of the best managers in the world. Then there’s this from Tim Sherwood you are far more eloquent than me at IT.....but the difference is? is my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 53 minutes ago, hippo said: Why do people keep harping back to the Bruce days ? - He is longer our manager and is highly unlikely to ever be again. " the defence is no worse than under Bruce" "The attack is better than under Bruce" - Bruce isn't the yardstick. The Yardstick is can we score enough at one end - and keep enough out at the other end to get us promotion. Being better or worse than Bruce is almost a non issue alongside getting promoted. we are 10th and we have to have a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New_Hope Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, hippo said: ???????? Really ??? ...we actually conceeded loads of goals in the last few home games 5 v forest 3 v leeds... 2 v qpr 2 v stoke.... ...and theres been quite a few close shaves as well. Teams are creating loads of chances against us. ..and taking them as well. Thought Forest scored 5 out 5 on target shots....there are creating chances and creating proper chances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, New_Hope said: The system we are trying to implement has been and will continue to be fine IMO. To say it ins't working when we have had more clean sheets in a similar amount of games under DS than SB doesn't really agree with your analysis. No matter what system you play, certain factors in the games that were quoted as being 'not good enough' have not been taken into account. Such as: a goalkeeper caught out of position for a long range shot v Forest or not being able to command his area for crosses etc. Fullbacks being culpable for needless penalties given away or gifting the opposition a chance to score through poor positioning. A referee and linesman that couldn't see the infringement that 30k others and TV cameras could see etc. etc. Now I'm not saying that individual errors/poor decisions will stop once DS has got in players of his ilk but I suspect that we will be more compact and stronger defensively as a team once they are without losing out attacking wise. One thing that has surely been highlighted in the last few matches is that we are desperate for a specialized DCM and another ACM as without both of these positions being filled with adequate players recently , we have suffered. but you have to understand....some posters applied ridicule to the prospect that some of the players were not good enough. so we change managers. Managers are usually responsible for who they bring in and then how they integrate them......there is a case to say, some are good at bringing them in, but not very good at integrating them or vice versa.....its kind of like, half cooked. Many of our players are not good enough...sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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