Dean Smith

[jim]

20 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

We've got an emergency loan keeper in goal. A January panic signing and a kid, who played non league a few years ago, as our forwards. 

We're also playing back up players across our defence. And have 2 wingers who have shown they aren't premier league quality.

Why do people think this squad should be winning games? 

It still amazes me what it's based on. Especially with some of injury issues.

Vastly experienced World Cup and European Championship winning keeper.

Striker who has played and scored in the Champions League and a highly-rated young English forward.

See, I can spin it to suit the narrative as well.

As we saw yesterday, the players DO have it in them to play well and had we played like that with the same gusto and enthusiasm against the lesser teams we’d have got more out of those games. Smiths coaching and tactics for the majority of the season have been our downfall.

Good managers get the best out of their players and improve them. We’ve got worse the longer Smith has been with them with the exception of the odd game.

 

[useless]

Well referring to our goalkeeper situation as having 'an emergency loan keeper in goal' is ignoring the fact that Reina is a very competent goalkeeper, and we also have an international goalkeeper in Nyland on standby and in fact a Croatian goalkeeper out on loan, so we can't really say that Smith has been hard done by in that regard.

Samatta is also competent striker, it's not as if he's somone unproven that the club bought on the cheap, so to just refer to him as a panic buy also doesn't tell the whole story, and Davis wasn't play non-league football a couple of years ago, he's been with us for five years now, and has shown himself to be a good performer in that time.

Us having to use these players in no way justifies no wins in nine games.

Saying 'in our heart of hearts' is just to reference to the fact that deep down I think we all know that no wins in nine isn't good enough, and I think anyone who says otherwise is just doing so because it's become their thing to defend Smith no matter what.

 

[Keyblade]

10 minutes ago, jim said:

Vastly experienced World Cup and European Championship winning keeper.

Striker who has played and scored in the Champions League and a highly-rated young English forward.

See, I can spin it to suit the narrative as well.

Which "spin" is closer to the reality you see on the pitch?

[Davkaus]

24 minutes ago, useless said:

and we also have an international goalkeeper in Nyland on standby

 

For Norway.

Peter Enckleman was an international goalkeeper. 

Barry Bannan and Eric Djemba-Djemba were international midfielders. International does not mean "good".

Quote

Davis wasn't play non-league football a couple of years ago, he's been with us for five years now, and has shown himself to be a good performer in that time.

Has he ****. The lad is as much a Premier League striker as I am a porn star. I mean, he has a go, but it's just not enough, and everyone that watches him can see he's not up to it. 

Quote

Samatta is also competent striker,

No. People need to stop it with this "CL goalscorer" nonsense. 40 odd goals in 100 appearances in the Belgian league says otherwise. Put it this way, Benteke was better than 1 in 2.

Scoring in the CL doesn't mean you're a top striker, the goalscoring rate in his domestic league says it all.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Davkaus

[useless]

Well that was my point, just as you can refer to our goalkeeping situation as having an 'emergency goalkeeper on loan', you can also twist the other way and make our goalkeeping situation look quite positive. No matter which way you look a it, having Reina or Nyland and Davis or Samatta as our keeper and striker options doesn't excuse nine games without a win.

[Zatman]

30 minutes ago, jim said:

Vastly experienced World Cup and European Championship winning keeper.

Striker who has played and scored in the Champions League and a highly-rated young English forward.

See, I can spin it to suit the narrative as well.

As we saw yesterday, the players DO have it in them to play well and had we played like that with the same gusto and enthusiasm against the lesser teams we’d have got more out of those games. Smiths coaching and tactics for the majority of the season have been our downfall.

Good managers get the best out of their players and improve them. We’ve got worse the longer Smith has been with them with the exception of the odd game.

 

who is the highly rated young ENglish striker? I bet no other Premier League fan could tell you a thing about Keinan Davis

[TRO]

11 hours ago, VillaCas said:

This isn’t news, nor is it a remarkable insight

Smith, Terry and the team understand what’s required

Promotion came ahead of expectations - 18 players out and 15 players in, with little experience or PL credentials.

I posted in July 2019 that 17th was my target this year - the season has felt exactly as I expected - frustrating as hell!

If you thought we would be better you were fooling yourself or a bad judge of football

Smith had made many mistakes, I’m sure he would admit so himself, but imo other circumstances have contributed more

If we go down, I favour sticking with Smith - he’s proved he can bring us up and he and us will be better prepared next time

• I thought we would do better, say c 14th. i did not expect to lose from winning positions so easily, maybe, I'm a bad judge....or they are a bad judge with the £140 mill....I just do not subscibe to the suggestion that the club thought like you, 17th might have been your expectation, but i don't believe it was theirs or Dean Smiths.
• What other circumstances are you alluding to?....its the manager who governs over football issues, or should be....and what mistakes do you think he has made?
• He brought us up on a once in a lifetime winning run of 10 games.....he has in the main presided over defeats and why do you think we will be better prepared, based on what, exactly.....his win ratio with us is less than 40%, where is this projection coming from.

However, I am no more sure than you, I have no confidence, if he went, we would sign better, such is my view on who is running us......Benefactors yes, not much else in terms of Nous.

 

[Tomaszk]

2 hours ago, mykeyb said:

Is it harsh to say we are 30 odd games into the season with a big break and it appears that Smith not only doesn't know his best 11 but also doesn't know the best formation to get the most out of his players.

And some people want him in charge next season in the Championship?

Tough to find a "good" best XI from lot. Options on the wing for example Trez, El Ghazi, Jota...Vassilev? Slim pickings. Rotating players like that isn't the worst thing IMO.

Not that you've said it but a lot of posts recently saying Smith hasn't improved players. Is there any universe any of those players can ever be "good" PL players? Vass maybe as he's so untested? The others no chance. You have to have decent base. Otherwise Liverpool and City would buy league two players for £50k a pop and let their world class managers turn them into world beaters.

I'd look to replace Smith if we stay up. I think with a record of one promotion from two thirds of a season in charge he's not a bad bet if we go down.

Open to options if you think there's any outstanding candidates though? Makes sense to give a new guy a season to bed in, while hopefully winning promotion. I know some people don't like him but if there was a Bielsa type (established top level coach) figure willing, I'd be up for it because it does look like Smith is short in the PL.

My worry with a lot of young managers is they could get swept away by the relentlessness of the Championship. The quality isn't all that but the slog is very real and it's tough.

If Suso stays it doesn't matter who's in charge because they're going to have shit players to work with. I'd sack him tonight if it was up to me.

[hippo]

It doesn't matter what we think on here - he's most likely going to get the push at the end of the season barring some miracle escape.

[Demitri_C]

I dont like the guy but summed up beautifully

Click

[TRO]

11 hours ago, Mjvilla said:

I'm not trying to catch you out if that's what you think. I think a number of people on here have called into question your support of Bruce and lack of support for Smith. So, when I see it in front of my eyes, I will call it out for what it is. The quotes i mentioned don't follow what you've said in bold. I feel like you're moving the goalposts of support now to suit how you feel. 

You said, not so long ago in this thread, that you supported Bruce, also, because there was a high level of vitriol which was unwarranted. Have you seen the things said about smith? Do you think he deserves support? I've now seen personal attacks at Smith, on this site, and will continue to call them out for what they are. Keyboard warriors. Now, you're not one tro, at all. You try to be fair. 

I suppose the point I'm getting at is, that you came up with a whole host of reasons to support Bruce (deservedly so), but when the same reasons can come up to support smith, you choose to ignore them and actually join in with some of the immature digs. 

I know everything you're saying, with regard to the manager. I get it. I think it sometimes too, but I have to respect him for the promotion and cup final. He deserves that. He's our most successful manager of recent times (not much to go against though). The manager you don't support did what the manager you did support couldn't in 3/4 of a season. I can't get my head round that. 

I think it's all to do with style, you're a well documented 'pull your sleeves up, put your boots on' type of bloke, with a bit of 'love in front of goal' I saw you posted elsewhere. I get that and won't criticise it. I think that's why you supported Bruce. But to flip like you have against Smith, despite doing what Bruce couldn't, is confusing to me. 

I think yesterday, we saw how Smith wants to play, and I liked it. But we don't have the players, consistently good enough to do it. If we stay up (big if), I absolutely think that would be our way. High press, defend well organised, and get men forward on the break. Particularly against the top sides. It's prettier than the way Bruce played and can be just as effective. 

I honestly think that it's gone too far for Smith now, some people's mind is made up and, even if we stay up, there will be calls for his head. I can't do anything to change people's minds, that's absolutely fair. What I can do is call out unfairness, and that's what I've seen from you. 

Fair play....its a reasoned post....but it is from your point of view....its your interpretation of what my views are and if others agree with you,fine.....many agree with me too, so thats irrelevant....everyone has their own opinions.......The whole world could say one thing, but our personal opinion is still relevant, even if it is contrast.

If you think i have an agenda of unfairness with both managers, i don't agree. I feel I have a reason for posting like i do....I do not see the level of vitriol against Smith like Bruce had to endure, but there again, thats just my opinion.....I think most fans are like me in the sense that all they want is for us to win our fair share of games, no matter who they are, and what there background is......we don't want to keep losing or going in to games looking like losing.

I have different opinions on both managers, for different reasons and in order to state my claim, its almost like i am drawn in to supporting Steve Bruce and its not my attention to do so.....Do I think he can Attrack a better calibre of personnel, yes I do...Having been captain of Man U, i guess that helps.....but he has gone and I don't want him back, that ship has sailed.

I prefer how Smith wants to play....can you bank that, because, i have said it so many times with out reference from my critics.....but at the same time my biggest turn off is conceding so many sloppy goals and  being serial losers....we had this with RDM and i was not prepared to join the "give him time " brigade then, so its nothing personal...Good    Managers don't lose consistently, like we do.....sure since lockdown we have defended a bit better, but i still i do not see us fight for the ball like other teams or win our proportion of headers....after the 10 game run, at leeds it was clear we was uncomfortable with their intensity.

I accept that, i might be brought up with a more physical overture to my idea of a good game....but equally, check out the physical endeavour of Liverpool and Man City and despite their sublime talent, they have a robust competitive side, sure they are better players, but they have more right to be powder puff, but they have work rate and physical endeavour drummed in to them.

In all honesty, I was expecting us to mirror Burnley or Sheff Utd, when we come up and being totally honest, I think another manager of the right sort, could have done that....I have to be careful here, because, I am not privvy to BMH, but it is just an impression, i get.....I am not obsessed with the spectacle, I like to seem Villa progress and play decent football, but losing gets me angry, thats the way, i have been brought up.

[VillaCas]

27 minutes ago, TRO said:

• I thought we would do better, say c 14th. i did not expect to lose from winning positions so easily, maybe, I'm a bad judge....or they are a bad judge with the £140 mill....I just do not subscibe to the suggestion that the club thought like you, 17th might have been your expectation, but i don't believe it was theirs or Dean Smiths.
• What other circumstances are you alluding to?....its the manager who governs over football issues, or should be....and what mistakes do you think he has made?
• He brought us up on a once in a lifetime winning run of 10 games.....he has in the main presided over defeats and why do you think we will be better prepared, based on what, exactly.....his win ratio with us is less than 40%, where is this projection coming from.

However, I am no more sure than you, I have no confidence, if he went, we would sign better, such is my view on who is running us......Benefactors yes, not much else in terms of Nous.

 

- What the club say in public and think in private may be two different things. If you sincerely believed 14th would be our finishing position I can understand your disappointment - I just hoped for survival this season and it has gone pretty much as I expected

- It’s NOT the manager who governs football matters. The CEO sets the strategy (buy young, wages structures, no loanees etc etc), the DofF manages the scouting network and player acquisition. The manager is in the mix, he is responsible for tactics, coaching but  also but works in the structure.

- I won’t list the mistakes Smith has made as their are plenty of people ready to point them out. My opinion is that he will have learnt from many of those mistakes and it would be foolish to throw that learning away and start again with a new manager who has to learn for himself from scratch - UNLESS we are going to bring in a manager who is clearly of a top level which I doubt is in the plans

- I think if we stay up we will sign a different type of player in the close season - a couple of Cahill-type signings would have made all the difference. Drinkwater was a gamble that didn’t come off but that type of signing is what was missing this year

- If we go down and lose two or three I think we could recruit for the Championship but with an eye on the PL

I’m of the opinion that our problems were , a “bad” squad built by Bruce, an unexpected promotion and too many ‘projects’ and not enough experience in the transfer window

If we keep changing managers every 18 months it will breed the short term attitude that resulted in the Bruce squad - signIng loanees and almost-over-the-hill one season wonders, rinse and repeat

Many may not agree but I want somebody to be given the chance of building something over a longer period - Smith knows the club, did great last season, will have learnt a lot this season and despite difficulties seems to still have the players on his side

Come on TRO, come over from the dark side!!

[jim]

1 hour ago, Keyblade said:

Which "spin" is closer to the reality you see on the pitch?

They all have the ability, the way they are coached or not as the case may he is the problem.

[Vive_La_Villa]

I think they’re all shit. Players and staff. Sack em all!

[hippo]

18 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I dont like the guy but summed up beautifully

Click

Sadly that's pretty much bang on. We concede to easily under pressure and it's not improved all season. It might improve in the championship - although I have my doubts.

[VillaCas]

20 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I dont like the guy but summed up beautifully

Click

Garbage 

Designed to generate calls

Every goal that ever goes in can be unpicked like this

Mings doesn’t lack guts

Taylor isn’t better than Targett

Heaton is our best goalie - Nyland is crap and Reina is a pale shadow but did ok yesterday

Plenty of games where we were crap but yesterday wasn’t one. We worked very hard all game against a team that had better players in every position 

 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, VillaCas said:

- What the club say in public and think in private may be two different things. If you sincerely believed 14th would be our finishing position I can understand your disappointment - I just hoped for survival this season and it has gone pretty much as I expected

- It’s NOT the manager who governs football matters. The CEO sets the strategy (buy young, wages structures, no loanees etc etc), the DofF manages the scouting network and player acquisition. The manager is in the mix, he is responsible for tactics, coaching but  also but works in the structure.

- I won’t list the mistakes Smith has made as their are plenty of people ready to point them out. My opinion is that he will have learnt from many of those mistakes and it would be foolish to throw that learning away and start again with a new manager who has to learn for himself from scratch - UNLESS we are going to bring in a manager who is clearly of a top level which I doubt is in the plans

- I think if we stay up we will sign a different type of player in the close season - a couple of Cahill-type signings would have made all the difference. Drinkwater was a gamble that didn’t come off but that type of signing is what was missing this year

- If we go down and lose two or three I think we could recruit for the Championship but with an eye on the PL

I’m of the opinion that our problems were , a “bad” squad built by Bruce, an unexpected promotion and too many ‘projects’ and not enough experience in the transfer window

If we keep changing managers every 18 months it will breed the short term attitude that resulted in the Bruce squad - signIng loanees and almost-over-the-hill one season wonders, rinse and repeat

Many may not agree but I want somebody to be given the chance of building something over a longer period - Smith knows the club, did great last season, will have learnt a lot this season and despite difficulties seems to still have the players on his side

Come on TRO, come over from the dark side!!

He has been with us for 18 months, you cannot realistically, keep citing Steve bruce, he is in his second club since he has gone and done ok with both......Drop the Steve Bruce cop out..."a bad workman blames his tools"

Your second paragraph fills me with melancholy.....I understand the game has changed and if you are saying the CEO has as much influence as i think you are....We are doomed Mainwaring we are doomed ,I say.....I do see a troubling future based on that.....If we don't have a manager to build the team, despite the calls from the modernists, "we don't do it that way now"....I don't see the improvement coming......If we had a David Dein, my opinion may differ....but i have no faith in Suso or Purslow, to build a team fit for Premier League purpose....Purslow is a finance man for me and Suso is well, I have no idea...we need a manager in charge of football matters.

We will only change managers if results dictate....you cannot run with losing consistently.

We all want a manager to build something over a period of time, the manager has to make that time, by winning some games....We have had managers in the past, who have done exactly that, bought themselves time and strengthened in each window.....but we keep buying players, we can't improve, for whatever reason and its stopping us from progressing.

Smith needs to tell the recruiters, he needs players who can play in key positions and create contrast in the squad.....its doesn't matter about knowing the club, its knowing what your doing on the pitch that counts.

I am not on the Dark side.....I just say it like I see it......yes it pains me at times, but whats the alternative, sweep it under the carpet and pretend the dirt is not there.....If we do that, we are just fooling ourselves.

Edited July 6, 2020 by TRO

[TRO]

28 minutes ago, jim said:

They all have the ability, the way they are coached or not as the case may he is the problem.

To be honest Jim, I am not sure its the coaching,in the technical sense..... I suspect its more discipline and demands.....I do think we have too many samey players, particularly in midfield, but i dont see the grit other teams show......I do think the team mirrors the manager, sadly......a thoroughly decent fellow.

[Tomaszk]

35 minutes ago, jim said:

They all have the ability, the way they are coached or not as the case may he is the problem.

Ability to do what? Finish top 10? 15th?

Did you see a change in style last year from Bruce to Smith? I'd put that down to coaching.

I think it's a fair assumption that coaching has continued with these players.

But this time we're playing Liverpool and Man Utd, not Blackburn and Nottingham Forest.

Putting it all on Smith is wrong.

[TRO]

24 minutes ago, VillaCas said:

Garbage 

Designed to generate calls

Every goal that ever goes in can be unpicked like this

Mings doesn’t lack guts

Taylor isn’t better than Targett

Heaton is our best goalie - Nyland is crap and Reina is a pale shadow but did ok yesterday

Plenty of games where we were crap but yesterday wasn’t one. We worked very hard all game against a team that had better players in every position 

 

It wasn't one of our worst games, but Liverpool played like they was in a testimonial.

but we still lost.

We still come up with a customary cock up where hause failed to cut out the ball to Mane....poor positioning and Taylor lost his man.......we can go through a game containing, like we did against Chelsea, then in the space of minutes bam, we concede, I can see it coming, we all can.

Southampton also played against a team with better players, but they dug deeper and got a win.....probably learnt from the Leicester debacle.....conversely, we learn nothing.