John McGinn

[lexicon]

18 hours ago, Phil Silvers said:

Absolutely gives everything, needs a definite detailed role and it is as an 8 and he needs a bloody good 6 to play with. 

Even if he does, which I'd dispute, it's not enough. He's not good enough to be a starter in a top half side IMO

[Tom13]

10 hours ago, Rightdm00 said:

Some, a very small some, are insufferable. Man bangs in a worldie and all you can do is nitpick. 

So if a player scored a worldie we have to forget the rest of their performance/limitations? Is that what you want?

[Phil Silvers]

1 minute ago, lexicon said:

Even if he does, which I'd dispute, it's not enough. He's not good enough to be a starter in a top half side IMO

Most will have to be upgraded in time. Dean sees him as a starter and has made him VC but he needs to add more ability wise. I don't think anyone can say that you don't get the effort.

[Tom13]

10 hours ago, GingerCollins29 said:

If mcginn had played that pass and bailey had scored, some of the people on here would be saying he mishit the pass and bailey scored a worldie

It was a great finish, you would have to be blind to say otherwise. Doesn't mean he's not got flaws in his game.

[Awol]

3 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

So if a player scored a worldie we have to forget the rest of their performance/limitations? Is that what you want?

No, we should highlight the rest of his performance. Like the Whoscored player ratings, for example:

 

[Tom13]

1 minute ago, Awol said:

No, we should highlight the rest of his performance. Like the Whoscored player ratings, for example:

 

Just proves you can't always rely on their rating system.

[Awol]

Just now, Tom13 said:

Just proves you can't always rely on their rating system.

I don’t think that’s what it proves. 

[Rolta]

8 minutes ago, Awol said:

I don’t think that’s what it proves. 

It's just made up. Those scores are not science. 

Also, Traore got a 6 but maybe was only good as far as I remember. I imagine scoring a goal bumped McGinn up a bit. 

I have to say when I reflect on games, I barely remember much McGinn does. It doesn't help if he was played out of position on Saturday. 

[vreitti]

1 hour ago, MaVilla said:

there is enough data and evidence around to see what type of player Sanson is, granted its currently unknown if he can translate that to the PL, but its clear the "type" of player he is.

Sanson didnt just magic out of nowhere in to the PL, he has multiple years of data and evidence behind him as a player.

Clearly Villa used data and evidence to decide to buy him, deeming him a good enough player to spend money on.

I didn't say the club don't know.

[Laughable Chimp]

15 minutes ago, Awol said:

No, we should highlight the rest of his performance. Like the Whoscored player ratings, for example:

 

Just fyi, I believe a goal in their rating system is worth 1.1 points so if we were to ignore the goal, then you'd have to substract 1.1 points from his final rating.

 

A 6.2 rating would clearly be considered a poor performance by their whoscored's standards.

[Rolta]

1 minute ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Just fyi, I believe a goal in their rating system is worth 1.1 points so if we were to ignore the goal, then you'd have to substract 1.1 points from his final rating.

 

A 6.2 rating would clearly be considered a poor performance by their whoscored's standards.

That puts Ings on a 4.7!

[bobzy]

29 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Even if he does, which I'd dispute, it's not enough. He's not good enough to be a starter in a top half side IMO

He absolutely is - just not CL clubs.

 

The amount of stick he gets is ludicrous.  Just a sad reflection on modern day football, really.

[Laughable Chimp]

6 minutes ago, Rolta said:

That puts Ings on a 4.7!

Firstly, I just realized that picture is wrong. It doesn't include Ings's goal. Sometimes whoscored takes time to update its ratings such that match ratings can continue to change even when it states the match is over. I'm guessing the picture here was taken before the final updates were done and they hadn't included his goal.

Secondly, penalty goals are given less points. Ings was given about 0.7 points for his goal so he'd be on 6.1 actually according to the most recent ratings.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1549548/Live/England-Premier-League-2021-2022-Watford-Aston-Villa

Edit: I found exactly when that picture was taken. If you adjust the slider at the bottom to minute 78, you'll get the exact ratings given that picture. So it wasn't even taken close to full time in actuality.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Laughable Chimp

[Condimentalist]

McGinn was probably our best player on Saturday. He looks properly fit again too. 

We need someone better to play alongside him, but he's comfortably good enough to be a regular starter for us. 

 

[lexicon]

19 minutes ago, Awol said:

I don’t think that’s what it proves. 

Goals always inflate a player's rating. 

I'd really like to see his movement stats because I felt he wasn't offering Targett anywhere near enough support in the game. Also, as part of a 2-man midfield, you'd expect a lot more passes and touches from him. This reinforces my impression that he wasn't showing for the ball enough. 

[lexicon]

5 minutes ago, bobzy said:

He absolutely is - just not CL clubs.

 

The amount of stick he gets is ludicrous.  Just a sad reflection on modern day football, really.

I don't think it is at all. It's a reflection of where we are as a club and why we need to not be so sentimental about players who just aren't good enough anymore. McGinn hasn't at any point proved that he is consistent enough for the level we want to play at IMO. His first season was absolutely brilliant, but it has also clouded people's overall judgement of him as a player. 

[bobzy]

4 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Goals always inflate a player's rating. 

I'd really like to see his movement stats because I felt he wasn't offering Targett anywhere near enough support in the game. Also, as part of a 2-man midfield, you'd expect a lot more passes and touches from him. This reinforces my impression that he wasn't showing for the ball enough. 

I think it shows more that the central midfield was being by-passed for whatever reason.  As you say, you'd usually expect the middle of the park to see a lot of touches - particularly in a game where we had 60%+ possession - but, actually, they didn't.  Long balls from the defence were 9 from Cash, 7 from Mings, 8 from Konsa and 9 from Targett and Young combined.  That's the entire back line looking to play long balls, regularly.  Usually, I imagine you'd see the central pairing doing it more with the full backs with shorter passing inside or down the line.  McGinn himself played 7 long balls - probably a tactical decision.

[bobzy]

5 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I don't think it is at all. It's a reflection of where we are as a club and why we need to not be so sentimental about players who just aren't good enough anymore. McGinn hasn't at any point proved that he is consistent enough for the level we want to play at IMO. His first season was absolutely brilliant, but it has also clouded people's overall judgement of him as a player. 

I don't think it has.  He's our best central midfielder as things stand and is good enough to play for a top half side.  This doesn't mean he's a world class player and it also doesn't mean that he doesn't make mistakes.  But, my God, he's the only player in our side who will actually take the ball from the defensive third into more attacking areas (centrally).  Literally no-one else does this for us.

Personally, I think he's shackled by having to play this weird defensive-but-not-really-defensive midfield role.  Ideally we'd sign someone who is a proper DMC, have them as the 'destroyer' alongside Luiz and play McGinn a bit higher up the pitch.

Edited August 16, 2021 by bobzy

[lexicon]

Just now, bobzy said:

I think it shows more that the central midfield was being by-passed for whatever reason.  As you say, you'd usually expect the middle of the park to see a lot of touches - particularly in a game where we had 60%+ possession - but, actually, they didn't.  Long balls from the defence were 9 from Cash, 7 from Mings, 8 from Konsa and 9 from Targett and Young combined.  That's the entire back line looking to play long balls, regularly.  Usually, I imagine you'd see the central pairing doing it more with the full backs with shorter passing inside or down the line.  McGinn himself played 7 long balls - probably a tactical decision.

I see what you're saying Bobzy but you can then ask why they felt the need to play long balls - was it because the options weren't on? Nakamba made a lot more passes and had more touches, if you look at Ramsey's numbers and double them up (as he only played a half), he was also well ahead of McGinn. 

[villalad21]

Are we praising his performance because he scored a worldie?

To me he was poor. Our midfield got absolutely destroyed and he was a part of that.

For me McGinn is always looking to do the sensational. Trying to dribble himself out of trouble when he doesn't have to. Trying to hit that 40 yard pass when he doesn't have to.

He just have to simplify his game. Need to start looking for those simple 2-5 yard passes and be more aware of his surroundings. He often get caught out in possession because he is taking too much time on the ball. Pass it quickly and simple.

Edited August 16, 2021 by villalad21