John McGinn

[lexicon]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

I don't think it has.  He's our best central midfielder as things stand and is good enough to play for a top half side.  This doesn't mean he's a world class player and it also doesn't mean that he doesn't make mistakes.  But, my God, he's the only player in our side who will actually take the ball from the defensive third into more attacking areas (centrally).  Literally no-one else does this for us.

Personally, I think he's shackled by having to play this weird defensive-but-not-really-defensive midfield role.  Ideally we'd sign someone who is a proper DMC, have them as the 'destroyer' alongside Luiz and play McGinn a bit higher up the pitch.

Yet against Watford he did that noticeably less than even Nakamba. Progressive carries - https://fbref.com/en/squads/8602292d/Aston-Villa-Stats

He's not shackled by anything but his own ability. 

 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

27 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Just fyi, I believe a goal in their rating system is worth 1.1 points so if we were to ignore the goal, then you'd have to substract 1.1 points from his final rating.

 

A 6.2 rating would clearly be considered a poor performance by their whoscored's standards.

"ignore the goal" 

It's no surprise whatsoever that he improved when asked to play as an attacking 8 rather than whatever the hell that was in the first half. John McGinn, like many midfielders, cannot play in a 2. Certainly not when his partner, one of the least progressive footballers I have ever known, is running around like a headless chicken somewhere near the opposition penalty box when the ball is down the other end. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

4 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Yet against Watford he did that noticeably less than even Nakamba. Progressive carries - https://fbref.com/en/squads/8602292d/Aston-Villa-Stats

He's not shackled by anything but his own ability. 

 

...and in this case playing in a midfield 2. Stick McGinn in a 3 and he's a completely different player, honestly. I don't really know what Smith is thinking by persisting with him in a 2, by this stage he is hoping on a miracle that will never come. 

[lexicon]

Just now, dont_do_it_doug. said:

"ignore the goal" 

It's no surprise whatsoever that he improved when asked to play as an attacking 8 rather than whatever the hell that was in the first half. John McGinn, like many midfielders, cannot play in a 2. Certainly not when his partner, one of the least progressive footballer

s I have ever known, is running around like a headless chicken somewhere near the opposition penalty box when the ball is down the other end. 

Yet Marv was more statistically progressive than McGinn that game 

And yes, goals mask deficiencies - just look at AEG and Hourihane. 

[lexicon]

Just now, dont_do_it_doug. said:

...and in this case playing in a midfield 2. Stick McGinn in a 3 and he's a completely different player, honestly. I don't really know what Smith is thinking by persisting with him in a 2, by this stage he is hoping on a miracle that will never come. 

Any midfielder is going to look better in a three when there is an additional player helping out. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Just now, lexicon said:

Yet Marv was more statistically progressive than McGinn that game 

And yes, goals mask deficiencies - just look at AEG and Hourihane. 

Which is a massive tactical **** up if the system allows for that to happen. Nakamba should never, ever, ever cross the halfway line. 

Goals mask deficiencies, but you can't just pretend they didn't happen when forming an overall picture of a player. As with El Ghazi. In his case it is the ONLY reason we should consider keeping him around as an impact player. 

[villalad21]

3 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

...and in this case playing in a midfield 2. Stick McGinn in a 3 and he's a completely different player, honestly. I don't really know what Smith is thinking by persisting with him in a 2, by this stage he is hoping on a miracle that will never come. 

Scotland is mainly playing him as an attacking midfielder.

That's what I think is his best position.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 minute ago, lexicon said:

Any midfielder is going to look better in a three when there is an additional player helping out. 

I don't get your point, it's 2021. He is an attacking midfielder. Unless the other player in the 2 is literal Kante, any attacking midfielder is going to be shackled from expressing their talent playing in a 2. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I don't think John McGinn is as particularly brilliant or earth shattering footballer, he's not going to kick on much more than he already has, but he's a decent Premier League number 8 and we've seen it so rarely it has become a myth at this stage.

That is down to the gaffer. If McGinn doesn't fit his system, he should move him on rather than try and crowbar him into something he isn't fit for. This isn't McGinns fault, tbh. 

[villalad21]

4 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I don't think John McGinn is as particularly brilliant or earth shattering footballer, he's not going to kick on much more than he already has, but he's a decent Premier League number 8 and we've seen it so rarely it has become a myth at this stage.

That is down to the gaffer. If McGinn doesn't fit his system, he should move him on rather than try and crowbar him into something he isn't fit for. This isn't McGinns fault, tbh. 

He was just named vice captain which goes to show what high status he still have under Smith.

Just like Mings I think McGinn is completely untouchable under this coach.

[Robbie09]

22 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Are we praising his performance because he scored a worldie?

To me he was poor. Our midfield got absolutely destroyed and he was a part of that.

For me McGinn is always looking to do the sensational. Trying to dribble himself out of trouble when he doesn't have to. Trying to hit that 40 yard pass when he doesn't have to.

He just have to simplify his game. Need to start looking for those simple 2-5 yard passes and be more aware of his surroundings. He often get caught out in possession because he is taking too much time on the ball. Pass it quickly and simple.

He wasn’t poor, I was at the game and watched him closely. There were too many players that were poor but McGinn wasn’t one of them.

[Laughable Chimp]

 

18 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Yet Marv was more statistically progressive than McGinn that game 

And yes, goals mask deficiencies - just look at AEG and Hourihane. 

Depends on your definition of progressive. But I would include passing as well as carries in that definition and I'd look at total progressive distance instead of just number of progressive actions. When combined, Mcginn was the more progressive of the two in that match(316 yards to Nakamba's 245 yards).

Regardless, I think referencing only Nakamba here to assess Mcginn could be misleading. Compared to his own average from last season, Mcginn had a higher progressive passing distance in this game and it more than counteracts him having a lower progressive carrying distance in this game. 

The second thing I'd like to add is that Nakamba was significantly more progressive than he was on average compared to last season. Almost twice his average progressive carrying distance last season and 50 percent higher progressive passing distance. Although, both statistics still below the average for a midfielder.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Laughable Chimp

[Dante_Lockhart]

[Stoobs]

11 hours ago, GingerCollins29 said:

If mcginn had played that pass and bailey had scored, some of the people on here would be saying he mishit the pass and bailey scored a worldie

Totally agree. McGinn has failings but I don't see how he is any weaker than anyone else in the midfield. Think he is a bit of a scapegoat because he cost so little, came from tinpot league and Smith appears not wanting to ever drop him. 

[bobzy]

36 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Yet against Watford he did that noticeably less than even Nakamba. Progressive carries - https://fbref.com/en/squads/8602292d/Aston-Villa-Stats

He's not shackled by anything but his own ability. 

 

I agree against Watford, he didn't do this enough.  As I said before, he needs to play further forward than the strange defensive-ish role he's being asked to play.

FWIW, I'd expect defensive players to carry the ball forward more regularly as a "progressive carry".  They don't get pressured in the same way and can literally move 3 or 4 yards forwards with the ball then pass sideways (which I imagine happens a LOT between Mings and Konsa).  In fact, maybe with the exception of wingers (who run with the ball as an actual thing), aren't defensive players the highest for this stat?

Edited August 16, 2021 by bobzy

[Tom13]

37 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Yet against Watford he did that noticeably less than even Nakamba. Progressive carries - https://fbref.com/en/squads/8602292d/Aston-Villa-Stats

He's not shackled by anything but his own ability. 

 

He doesn't have enough touches because he doesn't trust himself to get on the ball in tight spaces.

[Tom13]

28 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Scotland is mainly playing him as an attacking midfielder.

That's what I think is his best position.

Do you think he has enough guile to play that role? Especially with technicians like Bailey, Buendia and Traore around who will want to be having intricate link up play?

[villalad21]

1 minute ago, Tom13 said:

Do you think he has enough guile to play that role? Especially with technicians like Bailey, Buendia and Traore around who will want to be having intricate link up play?

I don't think he is good enough period. Wherever he plays.

But if we have to play him I'd play him further up the field.

[lexicon]

29 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I don't get your point, it's 2021. He is an attacking midfielder. Unless the other player in the 2 is literal Kante, any attacking midfielder is going to be shackled from expressing their talent playing in a 2. 

He's not a CAM, though - he's played in that position 12 times in his career vs. 215 times as a CM. https://www.transfermarkt.com/john-mcginn/leistungsdaten/spieler/193116/plus/0?saison=ges

[DaveAV1]

Being made vice captain is a nod to SJM as to how highly we value him as a squad member. He’s clearly of value in respect to his spirit in the camp. It doesn’t mean he will necessarily play so many games for us this season, especially if we invest further in midfield.
 

As many have said he’s more suited as an attacking midfielder and offers us great energy if he’s brought on for the last 20/30 minutes. It’s a squad game now.