Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Jareth]

Children are intentionally being starved to death and we shrug. Sorry chaps but that’s just not good enough. 

[chrisp65]

31 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

They probably mostly do care in a "oh how sad, someone should do something" way. But short of being a bit sad and angry about it, there isn't really much that anyone actually can do. 

You could always research what the various party leaders think of it, and vote accordingly.

 

[sne]

I treat Israel as I would have South Africa if I'd been an adult back then. Would never visit, go out of my way to never knowingly buy anything produced in Israel, be it oranges or soda streamers or whatever.I know there is tech produced there that end up in products that I'm sure I've bought but it is what it is. Don't watch stuff they are competing in, be it a football game or a song contest.

Means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things but I feel better about it.

Edit: Fwiw I try to do the same with Turkey for example.

Edited March 10 by sne

[ml1dch]

7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

You could always research what the various party leaders think of it, and vote accordingly.

Until there is an election, that's just an extension of "being a bit sad and angry" really, isn't it?

I mean, if there's something tangible that @Jareth can advise that would be "good enough" then I'm happy to consider it. 

[colhint]

Even then it's just a balance though isn't it. Nobody is just going to vote in a UK election based on what's happening in gaza.

[omariqy]

20 minutes ago, sne said:

I treat Israel as I would have South Africa if I'd been an adult back then. Would never visit, go out of my way to never knowingly buy anything produced in Israel, be it oranges or soda streamers or whatever.I know there is tech produced there that end up in products that I'm sure I've bought but it is what it is. Don't watch stuff they are competing in, be it a football game or a song contest.

Means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things but I feel better about it.

BDS works 

[ml1dch]

7 minutes ago, colhint said:

Even then it's just a balance though isn't it. Nobody is just going to vote in a UK election based on what's happening in gaza.

I'm pretty sure some people will. 

[Jareth]

23 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Until there is an election, that's just an extension of "being a bit sad and angry" really, isn't it?

I mean, if there's something tangible that @Jareth can advise that would be "good enough" then I'm happy to consider it. 

Happy to. Give a shit. 

[ml1dch]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

Happy to. Give a shit. 

We're still just in "be sad and angry" territory though. Which apparently is "just not good enough".

[omariqy]

I mean BDS and protesting are two very real things that can be done 

[Jareth]

27 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

We're still just in "be sad and angry" territory though. Which apparently is "just not good enough".

I regularly hurl cous cous to an unreachable shelf too

[ml1dch]

9 minutes ago, Jareth said:

I regularly hurl cous cous to an unreachable shelf too

There we go, sensible, targeted direct action. That's the sort of thing I can get on board with.

[Panto_Villan]

47 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Happy to. Give a shit. 

I think everyone posting in this thread or reading it gives a shit, kinda by definition. Why else would anyone be here?

[bickster]

11 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

I think everyone posting in this thread or reading it gives a shit, kinda by definition. Why else would anyone be here?

I only come here in moderation

[chrisp65]

25 minutes ago, sne said:

I treat Israel as I would have South Africa if I'd been an adult back then. Would never visit, go out of my way to never knowingly buy anything produced in Israel, be it oranges or soda streamers or whatever.I know there is tech produced there that end up in products that I'm sure I've bought but it is what it is. Don't watch stuff they are competing in, be it a football game or a song contest.

Means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things but I feel better about it.

It’s both futile, and the only thing that will make a difference.

I was in a supermarket recently and on that day every type of potato they were selling was from Israel. I’d only gone there for spuds, for a meal we were having. But I couldn’t buy them. I changed the whole meal plan we had something else and we had that meal a few days later when the spuds were from Pembrokeshire. Well done me.

It’s obviously the most middle class of  tiny little protests, but it’s something directly in my control, so I did it. It’s not lost on me that I’ve struck against the international war machine by switching to pasta. Also, that farmer in Israel just might be Palestinian, however unlikely. Also the farmer in Pembrokeshire might be supporting the IDF with free spuds. You can’t know everything. But you can do your little bit of what feels right.

It’s a nasty apartheid regime, we have to treat it like that. If it gains some basic humanity and respect for life, we can help protect it against other nasty murderous regimes. 

Right now they are committing crimes, killing babies, starving mothers on Mother’s Day. So I don’t buy their spuds and I won’t be voting for the cowardly apologist UK politicians that prop them up, red or blue.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

I won’t be voting for the cowardly apologist UK politicians that prop them up, red or blue.

I hate to break this to you, but it’s the voters in Israel that prop up their governments, and up until very recently the unwavering support of US administrations. The UK couldn’t prop up the Isle of Man. I mean I’m the same as you in avoiding knowingly buying anything made or grown in Israel as my equally futile and pointless gesture, that mostly assuages what’s left of my conscience. Israel’s government gives not two **** what our opposition parties, or government say or do. Their population is furious about how the hostages haven’t been rescued, but generally are supportive of the actions being taken “against Hamas” (deliberate inverted commas) according to polls.

[Genie]

Has George Galloway not managed to get this war stopped yet? 

[magnkarl]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

It’s both futile, and the only thing that will make a difference.

I was in a supermarket recently and on that day every type of potato they were selling was from Israel. I’d only gone there for spuds, for a meal we were having. But I couldn’t buy them. I changed the whole meal plan we had something else and we had that meal a few days later when the spuds were from Pembrokeshire. Well done me.

It’s obviously the most middle class of  tiny little protests, but it’s something directly in my control, so I did it. It’s not lost on me that I’ve struck against the international war machine by switching to pasta. Also, that farmer in Israel just might be Palestinian, however unlikely. Also the farmer in Pembrokeshire might be supporting the IDF with free spuds. You can’t know everything. But you can do your little bit of what feels right.

It’s a nasty apartheid regime, we have to treat it like that. If it gains some basic humanity and respect for life, we can help protect it against other nasty murderous regimes. 

Right now they are committing crimes, killing babies, starving mothers on Mother’s Day. So I don’t buy their spuds and I won’t be voting for the cowardly apologist UK politicians that prop them up, red or blue.

Worse yet, if your pasta is barilla or store brand pasta it’s likely made from Russian or Russian-stolen grain. The only way to get out of that is to grow your own spuds, you’ll likely also spare a tonne of endangered insects in the process.

The most effective solution here would be to strangle Iran, Likud and Russia. Whoever fills that gap won’t want to go so deep into red to go after Sunnis, Jews and Ukrainians.

BDS have proven to do absolutely nothing other than making people feel good about their choice. There needs to be a total intellectual change in ‘the West’ about how we support ‘allies’ and deal with enemies. Half-arsed measures and ambiguous language have enabled two fascist governments to bomb hundreds of thousands of people indiscriminately. Why can we make Ukraine follow rules of war with our aid but not Israel?

Importing spuds to a country with one of the most suitable climates for spuds from a desert is ludicrous anyway. You can literally grow a year’s worth in 6x6m bed by placing it on top of cardboard on your lawn and covering it with soil.

Edited March 10 by magnkarl

[magnkarl]

10 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

Nah, I don’t believe that. The Israelis are buying a fantasy if they think they can vote for a government that wants to settle Palestinian land, actively sabotage a two-state solution, empower the ultra-orthodox minority and pursue maximalist war goals. There’s no long-term way any of that works out in Israel’s favour.

They’re getting a preview of how it’s going to play out right now, and thankfully it looks like people have realised it’s a bad idea.

A more sensible government would be better able to protect Israel from external threats, and would be much less likely to antagonise the allies Israel needs to survive. And perhaps finish the reconciliation with the Arab states that was on the table before the attack. This war could have been conducted very differently if it wasn’t being carried out as political theatre.

Electing Netanyahu is entirely on Israel, just as electing Trump was on America and Brexit was on us. You can’t blame every act of self-destruction on external factors; sometimes people just vote for bad ideas.

You’ve simplified a political system of large coalitions consisting of anywhere from 2-5 parties from a perspective of a two party system. The current coalition doesn’t have a majority, they never did. Most of the voters of the current gov didn’t vote for the rabid politics of the outer right, but Likud who’s made a gradual shift right under Benny. 

Benny’s horse-trading to cling on to power and avoid prosecution has turned this situation into one which I don’t think many people in Israel want, besides from the outer right voters, who are a very loud and unpopular minority. You frame it as if the current Israeli government is wildly popular and that people are 'buying a fantasy', when the reality is that the protests against Benny's government have been record breaking in both number and ferocity pre-war.

The issue with Israel's system is that it's a nightmare to agree to anything, which means that a minority can hold power in special circumstances. The opposition needs to agree that getting Benny and his ilk out is number 1 priority, and then they can squabble about everything else. My dad always said 'Put 20 Jews in a room and you get 20 opinions on everything', it's this sort of squabbling that Benny has used to his advantage.

Benny can use war-time legislation to his advantage and essentially hold power as long as there's a war, which puts the voters at a massive disadvantage. That is in my opinion why this war isn't over. Benny knows that he's out as soon as it is. It's not many days since he had to cave on conscripting Orthodox Jews into the army, and he keeps having to walk back his idiocy every time he's in the Knesset.

Also, I do find the constant dismissal of the actual invasions\bombardment by Hamas\Hezbollah\Egypt\Syria\Lebanon\Jorda\Iran\Houthis and whatnot as policy defining in Israel to be quite tedious. What would you feel about Germany if after they were beat in WW2, came back every 5 years, committed wide-scale invasions, bombardments, terrorist activity and received funds from the richest Germanic countries on earth to do so? The conflict isn't one sided, yet the whole narrative for many is that it is. It really isn't Israel's fault that they've invested in the iron dome rather than offensive weapons and mitigate civilian losses that way, yet for some it seems that it is. What would happen if Hamas\Hezbollah weren't stopped by the Iron Dome? The intent is the same, it's just that one side can defend itself, while the other takes money from its poor people to produce badly made rockets to fire at Israel and bends the knee to Iran.

Without the ability to pour millions into air defense every day you'd be looking at Israeli (Arabs, Jews and Bedouin) kids killed in the very same way as the horrible #%¤¤ that is going on in Gaza right now. I think the first step to this ending is to acknowledge that the Palestinian authorities (Hamas, PLO, PA++) haven't exactly been forthcoming to peace agreements. It's been a 'everything or nothing' attitude since Arafat died, and before that several large scale invasions of Israel by a united Arab world. Heck, the slogan of the protest every weekend in London summarises it fairly well.

Edited March 10 by magnkarl

[chrisp65]

5 hours ago, blandy said:

I hate to break this to you, but it’s the voters in Israel that prop up their governments, and up until very recently the unwavering support of US administrations. The UK couldn’t prop up the Isle of Man. I mean I’m the same as you in avoiding knowingly buying anything made or grown in Israel as my equally futile and pointless gesture, that mostly assuages what’s left of my conscience. Israel’s government gives not two **** what our opposition parties, or government say or do. Their population is furious about how the hostages haven’t been rescued, but generally are supportive of the actions being taken “against Hamas” (deliberate inverted commas) according to polls.

If we’re trading with them, and giving them military assistance, we’re propping them up.

I’m not suggesting they have an absolute reliance on us or that the regime will fall without us.