magnkarl Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) 5 hours ago, ender4 said: Is there actually an alternative party for Palestinians to support? Or is it basically a one party state where the option is support Hamas or support nobody. There are some decent alternatives at least in the WB, but they seldom get to power because they don’t have the kind of money stuffed away from 20 years of stealing aid that Fatah, PLO and Hamas do. Palestine’s faltering political system is kept alive by aid, and not in a good way. Edited May 9 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) 5 hours ago, omariqy said: Quite depressing reading 'well your grandad voted for Hamas so that's why you're child died' Rather than Hamas came into power because of a state that was founded via terrorism and has spent 70 years cleansing your people from their homeland. I do enjoy how this is framed as either starting on Oct 7th or 2006. Like nothing happened before then. Again. Once again, you seem to paint a picture of a people that have done nothing at all wrong, it’s not even remotely true, and if anything furthers this constant victim-complex that both Israel and Palestine has. They’re capable of starting umpteen wars with weapons and rockets, but can’t feed their own people. Introspection is both sets of supporters’ worst enemy. At least Israel is getting pressured to do something by their allies, Palestinian organisations seems to be egged on by the entire Arab world and protestors to do worse than what they already did, which is start wars, bomb the Olympics, enforce fundamentalist variants of Islam, try to kill the king in Jordan and remove secular democracy from Lebanon. The list goes on. Maybe in another 70 years the approach to Palestine is different, after another 3 billion in aid yearly, their own UN agency spending 800 million more a year, some more intifadas which their supporters are screaming for through the streets of London every weekend and they’ve killed everyone who’s not straight, has committed adultery and lined their own politician’s pockets some more the approach is more dependant on wanting to be constructive rather than destructive? It’s like losing the previous 7 wars taught everyone nothing. Edited May 9 by magnkarl 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 32 minutes ago, magnkarl said: There are some decent alternatives at least in the WB, but they seldom get to power because they don’t have the kind of money stuffed away from 20 years of stealing aid that Fatah, PLO and Hamas do. Palestine’s faltering political system is kept alive by aid, and not in a good way. Without having anything to back me up other than gut instinct, I also imagine that if I were a Palestinian, speaking out and campaigning against Hamas is probably about as good for your health outlook as being a Russian contesting an election against Putin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 13 hours ago, magnkarl said: At least Israel is getting pressured to do something by their allies Well, that's a relief! Someone call Gaza and tell them to chill out, it's gonna be cool. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 38 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Well, that's a relief! Someone call Gaza and tell them to chill out, it's gonna be cool. It's not about chilling out, it's about trying to not continue the spiral, and maybe using the aid they're given for other things than rockets and bombs. Both sides need to work on not escalating things always, and for Palestinians it seems pertinent to maybe consider not starting a losing war every 5 years. Though to me it seems they'll continue that as they've got enormous support no matter what they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 If Palestine has enormous support - then why do Israel not have such support? Can any Israel supporter answer this question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Here's some music - Israel fans should post their own too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/10/un-support-palestine-membership Quote The UN general assembly has voted overwhelmingly to back the Palestinian bid for full UN membership, in a move that signalled Israel’s growing isolation on the world stage amid global alarm over the war in Gaza and the extent of the humanitarian crisis in the strip. Perhaps Israel should realise how PR does not trump ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 In case you are unsure how to react Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regular_john Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 11 hours ago, Jareth said: In case you are unsure how to react I think a lot of the reactions to this conflict are driven by ignorance regarding the nature and horror of urban warfare. Unlike most conflicts, images of this war are absolutely everywhere, all over social media, and often uploaded in real time. As a consequence, I think many people are seeing images of urban warfare for the first time and, with no frame of reference, are unable to distinguish war from genocide. It would be a bit like seeing a standard bomb go off for the first time and assuming it must have been nuclear because it was big. Clearly, it is of great benefit to the Hamas PR machine to flood the internet with images of dead children to provoke reactions such as that expressed by Lineker. What is most fascinating about all of this is that it confirms the power of propaganda and that the internet has, if anything, made it easier to manipulate the emotions and opinions of millions. Hamas have managed to invade Israel, slaughter over a thousand innocent men, women, and children, burn families alive, commit mass rape, take children hostage and still portray themselves as victims. Absolutely astonishing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mozzavfc Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 I don't think anyone here are saying Hamas aren't bad people. Most are taking issues with Israel's response of killing thousands of Palestinians who have nothing to do with Hamas. Last elections in Palestine was 2006, the people don't have a choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regular_john Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 16 minutes ago, Mozzavfc said: I don't think anyone here are saying Hamas aren't bad people. Most are taking issues with Israel's response of killing thousands of Palestinians who have nothing to do with Hamas. Last elections in Palestine was 2006, the people don't have a choice Most civilians of most nations have nothing to do with their governments. That is yet another horror of war. Apart from military action, what could Israel have done given the events of October 7th and ongoing hostage crisis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harkanon Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 7 hours ago, regular_john said: Apart from military action, what could Israel have done given the events of October 7th and ongoing hostage crisis? Anything but murdering 10s of thousands of children. I dunno. Sure is a tough one isnt it. Must be so so difficult to not kill kids hey. Or destroy all hospitals. Or destroy most dwellings. Or destroy the majority of schools and universities. It must also be really difficult to not drive over cemetery headstones with tanks. So so difficult 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Harkanon said: Anything but murdering 10s of thousands of children. I dunno. Sure is a tough one isnt it. Must be so so difficult to not kill kids hey. Or destroy all hospitals. Or destroy most dwellings. Or destroy the majority of schools and universities. It must also be really difficult to not drive over cemetery headstones with tanks. So so difficult Given that it’s so easy, name us a conflict where urban combat hasn’t affected any of the things you’ve just described. Ideally also one where you’re responding to someone who entrenches within the local population. There seems to be an awful lot of military experts cheering for Palestine. Edited May 11 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 26 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Given that it’s so easy, name us a conflict where urban combat hasn’t affected any of the things you’ve just described. Ideally also one where you’re responding to someone who entrenches within the local population. There seems to be an awful lot of military experts cheering for Palestine. Surely the IRA and Northern Ireland is the obvious example? There was a choice, go after Hamas relentlessly and forensically, or just commit genocide. That choice was made. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 (edited) 20 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Surely the IRA and Northern Ireland is the obvious example. Are we talking about the British not targeting the Catholic population? Edited May 11 by Mandy Lifeboats Added details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 There’s war and then theres this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 6 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: Are we talking about the British not targeting the Catholic population? I was looking for an example of a terror group carrying out atrocities, where the response wasn’t ’kill them all and flatten all the buildings and kill tens of thousands of civilians’ in a one sided 8 month ‘war’. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 13 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I was looking for an example of a terror group carrying out atrocities, where the response wasn’t ’kill them all and flatten all the buildings and kill tens of thousands of civilians’ in a one sided 8 month ‘war’. I take you point and agree 99% But I don't think the UK can claim to be squeaky clean. There were numerous examples of avoidable civilian deaths. Its also a very different scenario. Northern Ireland had many UK supporters in the population. Gaza has virtually no Israel supporters in the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regular_john Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 36 minutes ago, omariqy said: There’s war and then theres this. ...a war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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