Israel, Palestine and Iran

[ml1dch]

7 hours ago, omariqy said:

I mean BDS and protesting are two very real things that can be done 

I guess it's the risk that you might end with a bunch of nipples like this that might put someone off the idea of joining a protest. 

[Panto_Villan]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

You’ve simplified a political system of large coalitions consisting of anywhere from 2-5 parties from a perspective of a two party system. The current coalition doesn’t have a majority, they never did. Most of the voters of the current gov didn’t vote for the rabid politics of the outer right, but Likud who’s made a gradual shift right under Benny. 

Benny’s horse-trading to cling on to power and avoid prosecution has turned this situation into one which I don’t think many people in Israel want, besides from the outer right voters, who are a very loud and unpopular minority. You frame it as if the current Israeli government is wildly popular and that people are 'buying a fantasy', when the reality is that the protests against Benny's government have been record breaking in both number and ferocity pre-war.

The issue with Israel's system is that it's a nightmare to agree to anything, which means that a minority can hold power in special circumstances. The opposition needs to agree that getting Benny and his ilk out is number 1 priority, and then they can squabble about everything else. My dad always said 'Put 20 Jews in a room and you get 20 opinions on everything', it's this sort of squabbling that Benny has used to his advantage.

Benny can use war-time legislation to his advantage and essentially hold power as long as there's a war, which puts the voters at a massive disadvantage. That is in my opinion why this war isn't over. Benny knows that he's out as soon as it is. It's not many days since he had to cave on conscripting Orthodox Jews into the army, and he keeps having to walk back his idiocy every time he's in the Knesset.

I’m aware of all that, I just think your interpretation is unnecessarily charitable towards the Israelis for two reasons.

First, you’re implying the challenging situation Israel finds itself in makes Likud rule inevitable. I don’t buy it. There were alternatives, but not enough Israelis voted for them. That isn’t Iran’s fault or Hamas’ fault, it’s the fault of the Israelis.

Second, Netanyahu lost the election before last against a united opposition, so it was obvious his only partners this time around were going to be the far right - and he’s been around so long there should be precisely zero Israelis surprised he’s willing to put self-preservation ahead of national interest.

Sure, lots of Israelis didn’t vote for him and the polls suggest enough that did now have buyers remorse that he’ll get booted out at the next election. That’s good. But you still can’t try and pin this on anyone other than the Israeli electorate as a whole; they still voted him into power.

[Panto_Villan]

3 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Also, I do find the constant dismissal of the actual invasions\bombardment by Hamas\Hezbollah\Egypt\Syria\Lebanon\Jorda\Iran\Houthis and whatnot as policy defining in Israel to be quite tedious. What would you feel about Germany if after they were beat in WW2, came back every 5 years, committed wide-scale invasions, bombardments, terrorist activity and received funds from the richest Germanic countries on earth to do so? The conflict isn't one sided, yet the whole narrative for many is that it is. It really isn't Israel's fault that they've invested in the iron dome rather than offensive weapons and mitigate civilian losses that way, yet for some it seems that it is. What would happen if Hamas\Hezbollah weren't stopped by the Iron Dome? The intent is the same, it's just that one side can defend itself, while the other takes money from its poor people to produce badly made rockets to fire at Israel and bends the knee to Iran.

Without the ability to pour millions into air defense every day you'd be looking at Israeli (Arabs, Jews and Bedouin) kids killed in the very same way as the horrible #%¤¤ that is going on in Gaza right now. I think the first step to this ending is to acknowledge that the Palestinian authorities (Hamas, PLO, PA++) haven't exactly been forthcoming to peace agreements. It's been a 'everything or nothing' attitude since Arafat died, and before that several large scale invasions of Israel by a united Arab world. Heck, the slogan of the protest every weekend in London summarises it fairly well.

A new reply as you've edited the original post to add this. Yes, all of that is true. Of course the military threat against Israel is a huge factor in their policies / elections - but they're still choosing to vote for terrible solutions to the problem. They've repeatedly elected a government actively choosing to make the only viable peace solution (a 2-party state) impossible. Not just blocking progress on it, but actively moving it further away. The problem is you're presenting this as the inevitable result of the external threat, which it isn't.

I don't doubt that if the Israelis were doing their absolute best to make a 2-state solution work there would still be protestors in the street and people in this thread railing against Israel. However, there would be fewer of them, and far more people willing to give Israel unqualified backing (including at state level). The onus would be entirely on the Palestinians to make the 2-state solution work, or if they already had a state, to leave Israel alone. I think all this would be playing out quite differently.

Instead we're in a position where Israel has gone out of its way to sabotage the only route it has to an actual peace settlement.

[Jareth]

Far right wingers gonna far right wing 

[colhint]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

If we’re trading with them, and giving them military assistance, we’re propping them up.

I’m not suggesting they have an absolute reliance on us or that the regime will fall without us. 

They supply a lot of non generic drugs. If you or your family or friends are using them on prescription, there's a fair chance some come from israel. A man must have a lot of belief to deny his loved ones some meds they might need.

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, colhint said:

They supply a lot of non generic drugs. If you or your family or friends are using them on prescription, there's a fair chance some come from israel. A man must have a lot of belief to deny his loved ones some meds they might need.

No, you’re right, we need these generic drugs that can only be sourced from Israel.

Let’s not condemn mass murder and mass civilian punishment by starvation, let’s keep helping.

 

 

 

[colhint]

Ok let's pull out of that supply chain, when? Today, next week, next year.  And what do you give to the people until you get a new supplier.

 

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, colhint said:

Ok let's pull out of that supply chain, when? Today, next week, next year.  And what do you give to the people until you get a new supplier.

 

Educate me, which are the generic drugs we can’t source from elsewhere and couldn’t make here?

 

[colhint]

I don't know which ones. I don't suppose they are well known. The point im making is they are a large supplier of them so we probably take some. Because they are Sooooo  much cheaper than brand names. There's probably a few other countries who make them who we also have problems with. It's a global economy. You can't know really where much you buy really comes from. Someone pointed out earlier lots of own brand pasta starts with Russian flour. Hell people mainly use Apple and Google and they less tax than Malta. Apple pretty much own Ireland with the tax they pay there. 

I just don't think blame folk for getting what they need for a fair price. And I'm Damn sure hardly anyone would turn down a generic drug which have been proved for years to be 80 to 85% cheaper.

[chrisp65]

6 minutes ago, colhint said:

I don't know which ones. I don't suppose they are well known. The point im making is they are a large supplier of them so we probably take some. Because they are Sooooo  much cheaper than brand names. There's probably a few other countries who make them who we also have problems with. It's a global economy. You can't know really where much you buy really comes from. Someone pointed out earlier lots of own brand pasta starts with Russian flour. Hell people mainly use Apple and Google and they less tax than Malta. Apple pretty much own Ireland with the tax they pay there. 

I just don't think blame folk for getting what they need for a fair price. And I'm Damn sure hardly anyone would turn down a generic drug which have been proved for years to be 80 to 85% cheaper.

 

Well what a glorious waste of time that turned out to be.

 

[colhint]

14 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

Well what a glorious waste of time that turned out to be.

 

Ah got it 're read your original question. Maybe I did go on a bit. 

I suppose we could source our stuff elsewhere. But looking at trade agreements and volumes.  If we stopped buying from israel. And they stopped buying from us. What would happen to the jobs £3.5b on our side is a lot of jobs. To put it into context admiral insurance has a turnover over £4b and employs 7000 wales.

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, colhint said:

Ah got it 're read your original question. Maybe I did go on a bit. 

I suppose we could source our stuff elsewhere. But looking at trade agreements and volumes.  If we stopped buying from israel. And they stopped buying from us. What would happen to the jobs £3.5b on our side is a lot of jobs. To put it into context admiral insurance has a turnover over £4b and employs 7000 wales.

Trade with Russia has dropped by £9.8 billion according to the Dept of Trade & Business. 

 

 

[colhint]

But Russia broke the cardinal rule 

Every country has a right to defend itself

[LondonLax]

5 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Trade with Russia has dropped by £9.8 billion according to the Dept of Trade & Business. 

 

 

Though, entirely coincidentally I’m sure, trade with countries immediately bordering Russia, like Kazakhstan and Georgia, has gone up by about that amount

[Seat68]

6 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

 

Well what a glorious waste of time that turned out to be.

 

Purely for information as I don't have a great deal of knowledge about this conflict, certainly not enough to contribute to this thread but EpiPen is manufactured by an Israeli company I believe. 

[magnkarl]

11 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

A new reply as you've edited the original post to add this. Yes, all of that is true. Of course the military threat against Israel is a huge factor in their policies / elections - but they're still choosing to vote for terrible solutions to the problem. They've repeatedly elected a government actively choosing to make the only viable peace solution (a 2-party state) impossible. Not just blocking progress on it, but actively moving it further away. The problem is you're presenting this as the inevitable result of the external threat, which it isn't.

I don't doubt that if the Israelis were doing their absolute best to make a 2-state solution work there would still be protestors in the street and people in this thread railing against Israel. However, there would be fewer of them, and far more people willing to give Israel unqualified backing (including at state level). The onus would be entirely on the Palestinians to make the 2-state solution work, or if they already had a state, to leave Israel alone. I think all this would be playing out quite differently.

Instead we're in a position where Israel has gone out of its way to sabotage the only route it has to an actual peace settlement.

I have put this exact point to the only couple I know in Israel, and the answer they come back with is that the Arabs\Palestinian entity\Iran doesn't give a hoot about who's in power when they attack Israel.

Israel had Labour\Socialists in power since its re-inception in 1948 until 1977, all with varying willingness to split the country in two. In that time the Arab world had attacked Israel 3 times already. You make it seem like it's Israel's government that makes the Arab world and Iran's militias attack Israel. It probably is to a small extent, but I think you'll find that whoever's in charge of Israel have had very little influence with the Arab League\Iran\Muslim Brotherhood in their planning of attacking Israel. My point is that a lot of people who support a two state solution are absolutely blind to the countless times the Arab world\PA\PLO and whatnot have sabotaged a two state solution themselves. While pressure on Israel is commendable, I also think a lot of the people who join a protest against Israel should think a bit about how the side they're protesting for has been everything but accepting of a two-state solution themselves. The fact that many of 1 million people can shout 'From the river...' with a straight face every weekend and not think about how hypocritical that is when accusing Israel of not wanting a two state solution is beyond me.

Israel seems to be the only country in the world who, when invaded and having been victorious over their invaders in war, are having to follow another set of rules around the land their invaders lost to them. (Golan Heights in example).

Israel will elect a centre-left government next time around, I don't think it'll change Iran and its militias' views on Israel one bit. There will be attacks, terrorist actions and likely a large scale war in Lebanon next. Every action or inaction by the new Israeli government will be used to further increase the right-wing base in the country and the spiral will continue, and by the looks of things very few of the Palestinian cause's backers seem to give two hoots about what a corrupt horrible organisation governs the Palestinians. How can the PA have so many millionaire ex-politicians dotted around the emirates?

As you put it it yourself, we elected a government that ¤#%" up our country when it came to Brexit, the Americans elected Trump, that is all without being regularly invaded, bombed and rocketed by pretty much all our neighbours on a fairly regular basis. If two Western democracies with no real threats to their countries since WW2(apart from some terrorist attacks) elect right wing whoppers, how do you think standing on a platform of peace works out in a country that's been invaded umpteen times in 75 years works out?

Edited March 11 by magnkarl

[Panto_Villan]

47 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I have put this exact point to the only couple I know in Israel, and the answer they come back with is that the Arabs\Palestinian entity\Iran doesn't give a hoot about who's in power when they attack Israel.

Israel had Labour\Socialists in power since its re-inception in 1948 until 1977, all with varying willingness to split the country in two. In that time the Arab world had attacked Israel 3 times already. You make it seem like it's Israel's government that makes the Arab world and Iran's militias attack Israel. It probably is to a small extent, but I think you'll find that whoever's in charge of Israel have had very little influence with the Arab League\Iran\Muslim Brotherhood in their planning of attacking Israel. My point is that a lot of people who support a two state solution are absolutely blind to the countless times the Arab world\PA\PLO and whatnot have sabotaged a two state solution themselves. While pressure on Israel is commendable, I also think a lot of the people who join a protest against Israel should think a bit about how the side they're protesting for has been everything but accepting of a two-state solution themselves. The fact that many of 1 million people can shout 'From the river...' with a straight face every weekend and not think about how hypocritical that is when accusing Israel of not wanting a two state solution is beyond me.

Israel seems to be the only country in the world who, when invaded and having been victorious over their invaders in war, are having to follow another set of rules around the land their invaders lost to them. (Golan Heights in example).

Israel will elect a centre-left government next time around, I don't think it'll change Iran and its militias' views on Israel one bit. There will be attacks, terrorist actions and likely a large scale war in Lebanon next. Every action or inaction by the new Israeli government will be used to further increase the right-wing base in the country and the spiral will continue, and by the looks of things very few of the Palestinian cause's backers seem to give two hoots about what a corrupt horrible organisation governs the Palestinians. How can the PA have so many millionaire ex-politicians dotted around the emirates?

As you put it it yourself, we elected a government that ¤#%" up our country when it came to Brexit, the Americans elected Trump, that is all without being regularly invaded, bombed and rocketed by pretty much all our neighbours on a fairly regular basis. If two Western democracies with no real threats to their countries since WW2(apart from some terrorist attacks) elect right wing whoppers, how do you think standing on a platform of peace works out in a country that's been invaded umpteen times in 75 years works out?

I never said the attacks would stop if Israel hadn't elected hardliners - my point is that a more moderate government with a more moderate stance on the Palestinians wouldn't have alienated the West, who Israel rely on for military and economic survival. And they're ultimately doing it for what? Taking a bunch of largely worthless farmland off the Palestinians?

There's clearly no guarantee peace will come if they elect a moderate government, but there's at least a pathway open for it (and over time many of Israel's enemies have become neutral parties; it's only really Iran left now). But Israel needs to play by the rules if they don't want to be thrown to the wolves; eventually even the US will tire of their behaviour if they continue down this path.

Yes, in the past the Palestinians have sabotaged the peace process too. This is part of the reason why support for Israel was higher twenty years ago, because they weren't the ones sabotaging the peace process. If in ten years the Palestinians are the ones preventing a peace settlement then most people won't be interested in hearing excuses from them about how Israel did bad things a decade ago, and right now nobody cares about Palestinian corruption because it's just not the issue that matters. The way to put it in the spotlight is for Israel to be pushing for peace.

[magnkarl]

28 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

I never said the attacks would stop if Israel hadn't elected hardliners - my point is that a more moderate government with a more moderate stance on the Palestinians wouldn't have alienated the West, who Israel rely on for military and economic survival. And they're ultimately doing it for what? Taking a bunch of largely worthless farmland off the Palestinians?

There's clearly no guarantee peace will come if they elect a moderate government, but there's at least a pathway open for it (and over time many of Israel's enemies have become neutral parties; it's only really Iran left now). But Israel needs to play by the rules if they don't want to be thrown to the wolves; eventually even the US will tire of their behaviour if they continue down this path.

Yes, in the past the Palestinians have sabotaged the peace process too. This is part of the reason why support for Israel was higher twenty years ago, because they weren't the ones sabotaging the peace process. If in ten years the Palestinians are the ones preventing a peace settlement then most people won't be interested in hearing excuses from them about how Israel did bad things a decade ago, and right now nobody cares about Palestinian corruption because it's just not the issue that matters. The way to put it in the spotlight is for Israel to be pushing for peace.

I think both parties need to be held accountable. There's clearly a laissez-faire attitude to the countless things going wrong for the Palestinians, Hamas is one thing, the perennial thieving of money, impoverishment of the Palestinian people by politicians and the willingness to be first the Arab League's, then Iran's attack dog, should be seriously looked at. Personally I think there's very little evidence to show that PA\Fatah, PLO or whatever comes after Hamas in Gaza is capable of peaceful coexistence with Israel, or any secular government that may spring up next to them. (ref Lebanon, Jordan and the countless trouble PLO\Fatah\PA\Black September has caused in not just Israel). How many times does actors within Palestine have to disrupt the peace process before people call them out on it?

Sadly I think opposition to Israel is ingrained in many milieus, no matter how many times Israel have tried to offer the Palestinian people land, rights or whatever, someone screws it over (be that Israel's right, various Islamic militias or Iran). The BDS movement was formed shortly after Israel completely withdrew from Gaza. What happened? We were close to a historic deal between many Arab nations and Israel in October, what happened?

Edited March 11 by magnkarl

[VILLAMARV]

@Jareth,

Given that we are aware of the nukes they don't have from the US and the way our secret services are intertwined and how powerless we are as individuals and as collective voting blocks against the wishes, legal or otherwise, of the Industrial Military Complex I'm not sure what response from individuals you are looking for.

I think it's pretty obvious over the years that we share the utter horror and disgust at the mistreatment of ANY living creatures, and I for one am utterly horrified at how people not directly involved can do mental gymnastics to normalise or outright justify torture, denigration and so on. And that is true no matter the border or country or religeons involved. Or what the economic benefit may be.

It's just the morality, which I'd hope all us posters share in some form, is not a constant and it is not a truism of the human condition. It may be the struggle since the enlightenment and I for one believe it is possible for us humans to overcome our more base desires through thought and reasoning. But I also don't think I'm bearing witness to that period of history. We're evidently not quite there yet. We can't even share the most basic of needs with our fellow humans, like food or water, instead preferring they starve while we dump food because, you know, economic gain.

I'd love to live in a moral world and whatever hollywood and disney tell us, we don't. We can, in small ways, affect our own environment. I'd like to think my home is a moral place. I make moral decisions, but it's entirely subjective and it is not my place to inflict that version of morality onto others.

Chin up mate, but don't mistake frippery for soulless amorality. As Camus said, life is absurd.

[Panto_Villan]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

I think both parties need to be held accountable. There's clearly a laissez-faire attitude to the countless things going wrong for the Palestinians, Hamas is one thing, the perennial thieving of money, impoverishment of the Palestinian people by politicians and the willingness to be first the Arab League's, then Iran's attack dog, should be seriously looked at. Personally I think there's very little evidence to show that PA\Fatah, PLO or whatever comes after Hamas in Gaza is capable of peaceful coexistence with Israel, or any secular government that may spring up next to them. (ref Lebanon, Jordan and the countless trouble PLO\Fatah\PA\Black September has caused in not just Israel). How many times does actors within Palestine have to disrupt the peace process before people call them out on it?

Sadly I think opposition to Israel is ingrained in many milieus, no matter how many times Israel have tried to offer the Palestinian people land, rights or whatever, someone screws it over (be that Israel's right, various Islamic militias or Iran). The BDS movement was formed shortly after Israel completely withdrew from Gaza. What happened? We were close to a historic deal between many Arab nations and Israel in October, what happened?

That's because Israel has ensured there's no need to discuss any of those issues by so thoroughly sabotaging any path to peace that they're basically irrelevent (except Hamas, which has certainly been "looked at" in the past six months).

Not sure what else there is to say. Israel can either try and work towards peace with Western backing, which might be a painful process and take a long time, or it can decide it wants forever war with no outside assistance. It's currently choosing the latter, and given they hold most of the cards in the Palestinian question that's by far the most important roadblock. You might want people to give equal weight to all the other roadblocks too, but just feels like you're trying to minimise downplay Israel's recent idiocy.