LondonLax Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Apparently the other members of the audience started joining in and abusing the guy until he left the show. His only crime was not wanting to stand and applaud the Palestinian flag. Grim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 3 hours ago, LondonLax said: Apparently the other members of the audience started joining in and abusing the guy until he left the show. His only crime was not wanting to stand and applaud the Palestinian flag. Grim. It's the sort of gang mentality which has antisemitic abuse skyrocket in the UK because some foreign regime which most British Jews have very little to do with is behaving like pricks. When you look at the people that I've seen arrested over it they're generally left leaning, what you'd call 'liberal' and someone who'd condemn racism against pretty much any other minority. Try to walk through i.e Hyde Park wearing a kippot and you'll be accosted by pretty much anyone near what Londoner's call the 'speaker's corner'. There's a reason why it's called the oldest racism in the world, when even people who would label themselves anti-racist, go to BLM marches, Harvard or big universities in the UK struggle to contain their own racism when it's aimed at someone who happens to have the same ethnicity as a country half a continent away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) On 13/02/2024 at 18:45, OutByEaster? said: I read the whole paragraph - in fact, here it is. It says nothing of the sort, it's an apparently balanced report on the way in which the migration is reported. I have a feeling you'll be angry at the word migration, I've used it since it's the word that seems to be most used in the places where this is written about - y'know as opposed to "ruthless purge" or "cleansing". I didn't say they all did - in fact I commented to the effect of the exact opposite, that the reasons were varied and that there was nuance in it that wasn't being expressed by your claim that "all of them" moved because of a ruthless purge or a process of cleansing. My point, which I'm assuming you're deliberately avoiding was that you took a situation with a variety of factors, picked out one representation of it and added some very emotive and factional language around purges, cleansing and invasion - then reminded us of the importance of avoiding the "kind of factionalism we see from both sets of supporters today." You seemed to take insult at the word 'purge' or 'ethnic cleansing', yet forcefully moving, treating minorities worse than everyone else and taking their property so that they happen to move to the only place that is safe should somehow diminish the fact of the matter. Turn the tables to the Palestinian cause, would you say that Israel is making it so that other Arabic nations, Europe or wherever these poor people flee to from Gaza\WB is causing a 'pull factor', or would you call it ethnic cleansing? I'd wager that if you were essentially called a pest on society, have your religion banned, your money and business confiscated and people in your ethnicity hung publicly nearby for just being who they were and Israel happening to be founded several countries over you wouldn't feel like escaping to another country just to be able to be you being a 'pull factor'. Edited February 14 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 14 Moderator Share Posted February 14 Just now, magnkarl said: Turn the tables to the Palestinian cause, would you say that Israel is making it so that other Arabic nations, Europe or wherever these poor people flee to from Gaza\WB is causing a 'pull factor', or would you call it ethnic cleansing? If the US put a big fence around Gaza, protected it militarily, lifted the blockades, poured in billions of pounds of aid and encouraged and smoothed global trade with the new region, I reckon the people in the West Bank would probably say they'd had enough of being spat at in the street and occasionally shot and mosey on over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 3 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: If the US put a big fence around Gaza, protected it militarily, lifted the blockades, poured in billions of pounds of aid and encouraged and smoothed global trade with the new region, I reckon the people in the West Bank would probably say they'd had enough of being spat at in the street and occasionally shot and mosey on over. So it isn't ethnic cleansing if there's a better place to go to? Add in the fact that most Jews (except for Egypt and Iraq who essentially purged - or removed, or whichever word suits you better - everyone in a short period of time) in the Arab world up until the last people left from Iran had to be smuggled out as they didn't get papers, and your argument simply falls to bits. Edited February 14 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 14 Moderator Share Posted February 14 Just now, magnkarl said: So it isn't ethnic cleansing if there's a better place to go to? It isn't ethnic cleansing if it's a decision made to leave, if the people migrating are deciding freely to move. Israel is a mix or immigrants and refugees, some fled there, some rushed there, there's a balance to it - that's the point - that there is a balance. You'd omitted that balance in a post in which you reminded us of the importance of balance. If you don't want to acknowledge that then I'm fine with it, there's no need for us to continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 25 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: It isn't ethnic cleansing if it's a decision made to leave, if the people migrating are deciding freely to move. Israel is a mix or immigrants and refugees, some fled there, some rushed there, there's a balance to it - that's the point - that there is a balance. You'd omitted that balance in a post in which you reminded us of the importance of balance. If you don't want to acknowledge that then I'm fine with it, there's no need for us to continue. I think Israel is committing ethnic cleansing, just as I think Arabian nations and Iran committed ethnic cleansing. Whether pull or push factors caused said ethnic cleansing is completely irrelevant. The current Israeli regime would profit from the ethnic cleansing of Arabs just as much as the Arab and Iranians think they profited from removing the Jews. The Hague doesn't really separate if a country makes the life of a minority so bad that they have to leave or pushes them out the door\kills them. It's called ethnic cleansing and purging nonetheless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 14 Moderator Share Posted February 14 You seem to be involved in an argument that I'm not making. 11 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Whether pull or push factors caused said ethnic cleansing is completely irrelevant I agree with you on all the rest, but this is the only bit that's actually relevant to what I've been trying to say to you - that there were people who fled to Israel (pushed - ethnic cleansing if you like) and there were people that rushed to Israel (pulled - triumphant return to the homeland) - but crucially that both types of people exist and that a balanced perspective would recognise both of those circumstances and a whole range in between - something your initial post what feels like a long time ago didn't do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said: You seem to be involved in an argument that I'm not making. I agree with you on all the rest, but this is the only bit that's actually relevant to what I've been trying to say to you - that there were people who fled to Israel (pushed - ethnic cleansing if you like) and there were people that rushed to Israel (pulled - triumphant return to the homeland) - but crucially that both types of people exist and that a balanced perspective would recognise both of those circumstances and a whole range in between - something your initial post what feels like a long time ago didn't do. Yes. Do you think there was a preponderance of one type, and if so which type? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 14 Moderator Share Posted February 14 5 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: Yes. Do you think there was a preponderance of one type, and if so which type? I don't know. I've never claimed to know. It's not an argument I'm interested in having. You should perhaps direct your question at @magnkarl who claimed that they were all ruthlessly purged under a direct quote that said "In the 20th century, approximately 900,000 Jews migrated, fled, or were expelled" and finished with a plea for balance. Some migrated, some fled, some were expelled. That seems quite balanced to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: Some migrated, some fled, some were expelled. That seems quite balanced to me. While likely an accurate description ... balanced it is not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 14 VT Supporter Share Posted February 14 Never mind kids, some of the relatives of the people that murdered your parents may have come to these lands under duress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 11 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: I don't know. I've never claimed to know. It's not an argument I'm interested in having. You should perhaps direct your question at @magnkarl who claimed that they were all ruthlessly purged under a direct quote that said "In the 20th century, approximately 900,000 Jews migrated, fled, or were expelled" and finished with a plea for balance. Some migrated, some fled, some were expelled. That seems quite balanced to me. Well, at least from the little sample size I have there were very few Jews in ME who fled to Israel to achieve some sort of Zionist agenda. They fled because the option is what you now see in all Arab states and Iran. The Zionism thing isn’t a Mizrahi creation, and I think straying into the line of thought that people went to Israel from countries that viciously persecuted them because of wanting to return to Zion rather than the conditions they were put in after various Islamic regimes went mad is hugely overstated by people you and I want nothing to do with. Maybe the statement should have been that 900.000 Jews ended up in Israel and other countries for various reasons including some wanting to go to the promised land. The point I was trying to make before we went on a tangent was that the Mizrahi Jews who went to Israel had kids, told them about what happened in their countries of birth and that it, along with almost the other initial half of the Israeli population who had the same experience with their grandparents telling them about the shoah makes for an exceptionally paranoid, vengeful and over the top violent nation in their response to Arabian, Islamic, right wing or left wing persecution. It’s a #€#€# situation, and I’m not sure if I’d react any different if a Nazi terror group suddenly went out and killed lots of Jews in the UK. It’s inbred into the Jewish consciousness to not let shit like that float, ever again. Benny manipulates that and causes much the same suffering for others, which makes it even worse. At this point we're so far down the road of annihilation that neither side is going to stop. The question then becomes how do we help stop it? You're not going to get Israel to stop producing arms and receiving military aid from the US, because as history has shown pretty much all of Israel's neighbours are intent on wiping out the Jews (as shown by the 900.000) and Israel (as shown by the countless Arabian-league initiated wars, or more recently Oct 7th). I'm at the point where I don't think we can put this conflict back in the box, and that Israel and Iran are likely heading for a war. Maybe if Iran finally has its people freed from Islamic fundamentalism that the whole region could learn to live with each other. But even in such an event you've still got Qatar and the Muslim Brotherhood to deal with, they're so entrenched in many of Israel's neighbouring states that it seems nigh on impossible. Edited February 15 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 49 minutes ago, Chindie said: Never mind kids, some of the relatives of the people that murdered your parents may have come to these lands under duress. God that is a truly depressing video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 37 minutes ago, omariqy said: Worth noting that the writer of this article in The Intercept is Murtaza Hussain, who frequently also submits work to Ayatollah-controlled outlet Teheran Times. Worth also noting that his main source for this information is Mads Gilbert, a man who Egypt won't let into Gaza as he's got deep sympathies with Islamic fundamentalist groups and has been removed from doctors without borders (he's a doctor), a man who praised 9/11 and called the Hamas attack on Oct 7th completely justified and a struggle for freedom. Huge pinch of salt, he falls squarely into the same cateogry as Likud owned publications. Have a look at some of his other work and you quickly realise that this guy has about as much of a relationship to truth as Ben Gvir. Owen Jones keeps falling for it. I particularly enjoyed the article where Murtaza Hussain helps the Iranian regime locate and discredit exile Iranian groups abroad who try to make Iran better for people. Again, I'd urge you to look as closely at some of these sources as you do sources posted by Israeli propaganda channels. Edited February 15 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 I didn’t bother reading it as it had been posted by Owen Jones. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regular_john Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 49 minutes ago, omariqy said: Yet more anti-Israel propaganda from Owen Jones. The more this stuff gets spread, the more people will fall for it and the louder the noise of propaganda and BS becomes. Please consider your sources when reposting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icouldtelltheworld Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I didn’t bother reading it as it had been posted by Owen Jones. I also apply this rule to filter out bullshit, and find it incredibly successful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 58 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Worth noting that the writer of this article in The Intercept is Murtaza Hussain, who frequently also submits work to Ayatollah-controlled outlet Teheran Times. Worth also noting that his main source for this information is Mads Gilbert, a man who Egypt won't let into Gaza as he's got deep sympathies with Islamic fundamentalist groups and has been removed from doctors without borders (he's a doctor), a man who praised 9/11 and called the Hamas attack on Oct 7th completely justified and a struggle for freedom. Huge pinch of salt, he falls squarely into the same cateogry as Likud owned publications. Have a look at some of his other work and you quickly realise that this guy has about as much of a relationship to truth as Ben Gvir. Owen Jones keeps falling for it. I particularly enjoyed the article where Murtaza Hussain helps the Iranian regime locate and discredit exile Iranian groups abroad who try to make Iran better for people. Again, I'd urge you to look as closely at some of these sources as you do sources posted by Israeli propaganda channels. Thanks mate. I did check it first and there’s other accounts of what happened and also images and video if you look at the replies to the tweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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