17/18 Promotion Charge

[TRO]

On 9/7/2017 at 11:18, vreitti said:

Which players do you feel aren't performing as they should be? Furthermore what are you basing this "performance level" expectation on? 

specific games have specific problems but in the main, we fail to dominate in midfield

• We win the ball spasmodically but without consitency
• we rarely win aerial challenges, particularly in the middle of the park
• we rarely impose our physical presence on the opposition
• we lack cohesion between passing and running off the ball
• certain players close down others don't
• there seems a lack of understanding or timing between midfield and attacAgainst

In General

Hull.....We allowed them back in the game from a good position not clinical enough offensively and defensively.

Cardiff..... we just never competed.....unacceptable.

Reading.....didn't see it.

Norwich and Wigan we played the way we expect to, no criticism.

Edited September 8, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

45 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Not sure i agree with this. What players are you referring to in particular?

 

Most of them.

i don't mean to be condescending.....but i watch the players execute their work as opposed to focussing to much on formations.

I watch how they impose their game on their opposite number....or conversely just drift through a game shadowing their opponent.

i watch full backs getting beaten or not which ever the case.

i watch CB's i am looking for them to dominate the ball in the main, not stand off and ball watch.

I watch for strikers to make runs and create space and more importantly make theselves available for a pass.

I watch for midfielders to probe and bob and weave and win the ball from tackles or pick pocketing( interceptions)

I watch for our players closing down when we haven't got the ball and opening up when we have.

I watch for our players running off the ball intelligently to give their mates space to play the ball.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2017 by TRO

[dn1982]

4 hours ago, TRO said:

I worry about getting  overrun when the players don't perform or do their jobs.

tactics can only take you so far......players have to do the business.

You keep saying this that tactics only take you so far but players do the rest but a good manager uses tactics to get the best out of his players. Brentford last season played far better football than us with far less rated players. Reading passed us off the park this year. Cardiff hammered us. Bruce is at fault no matter which way you look at this. They are his players. He's bought them. He's trained them. He's told them how to play. He's picked them. He's swapped formations. Bruce has been here long enough to get a coherent plan together with a highly respected squad capable of winning enough games to challenge. 

The buck stops with the manager or there's no point in having one. He's got no excuses left. His players we've enough time to get them doing what he wants. Brentford needs to be a convincing win. Hopefully then we can pick a settled side and let the opposition worry about us for a change. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by dn1982

[vreitti]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

specific games have specific problems but in the main, we fail to dominate in midfield

• We win the ball spasmodically but without consitency
• we rarely win aerial challenges, particularly in the middle of the park
• we rarely impose our physical presence on the opposition
• we lack cohesion between passing and running off the ball
• certain players close down others don't
• there seems a lack of understanding or timing between midfield and attacAgainst

In General

Hull.....We allowed them back in the game from a good position not clinical enough offensively and defensively.

Cardiff..... we just never competed.....unacceptable.

Reading.....didn't see it.

Norwich and colchester we played the way we expect to, no criticism.

I suppose I agree with most of that. Midfield has also in my view been the specific area where we've most failed under Bruce. Seeing as all our midfielders now are Bruce's signings, it really is up to him to drill them into playing the way he wants, preferably in a way that will yield results, wouldn't you agree? There can be no more excuses.

[ferguson1]

Four points from the next two games is a minimum.   Win Saturday, then I wouldn't be too disappointed with a point next week.  Would be delighted with two wins though.  

[TRO]

9 hours ago, dn1982 said:

You keep saying this that tactics only take you so far but players do the rest but a good manager uses tactics to get the best out of his players. Brentford last season played far better football than us with far less rated players. Reading passed us off the park this year. Cardiff hammered us. Bruce is at fault no matter which way you look at this. They are his players. He's bought them. He's trained them. He's told them how to play. He's picked them. He's swapped formations. Bruce has been here long enough to get a coherent plan together with a highly respected squad capable of winning enough games to challenge. 

The buck stops with the manager or there's no point in having one. He's got no excuses left. His players we've enough time to get them doing what he wants. Brentford needs to be a convincing win. Hopefully then we can pick a settled side and let the opposition worry about us for a change. 

I keep saying it, because i think its true.

being a great tactician as a manager will not negate poor players or players that play poorly.....or players that do not follow instruction or dismiss instruction......help.

i cannot spell this out more blantantly than i have.

if you disagree fine.....but don't argue with me.....i am not going to change my opinion.

[TRO]

9 hours ago, vreitti said:

I suppose I agree with most of that. Midfield has also in my view been the specific area where we've most failed under Bruce. Seeing as all our midfielders now are Bruce's signings, it really is up to him to drill them into playing the way he wants, preferably in a way that will yield results, wouldn't you agree? There can be no more excuses.

I agree, but i think its the area we have failed under many managers.

Its not a case of excuses it a case of being explicit about the criticism and i think you have been.

I think our biggest problem is midfield.....but i see a manager trying to fix it....so far, no good, but he is trying.....he may not have been able to sign who he really wanted, we will never know.

we need to keep trying to improve.

[Junxs]

Why does this thread even exist?  We're 1 point off relegation. Should be locked until it looks a possibility 

[Tommo_b]

4 hours ago, Junxs said:

Why does this thread even exist?  We're 1 point off relegation. Should be locked until it looks a possibility 

lol yeah but also only 4 points off 6th place and 7 points off 2nd. 

[DaveAV1]

7 hours ago, TRO said:

I keep saying it, because i think its true.

being a great tactician as a manager will not negate poor players or players that play poorly.....or players that do not follow instruction or dismiss instruction......help.

i cannot spell this out more blantantly than i have.

if you disagree fine.....but don't argue with me.....i am not going to change my opinion.

So which of Cardiff's players would you swap for ours? By your logic they must be the best players in this league and ours must be some of the worst. If that's the case why did Steve Bruce buy them?

Sorry TRO I just read your last line again, don't consider this an argument, consider it exploring opposing points of view. 

Edited September 8, 2017 by DaveAV1

[Tommo_b]

1 minute ago, DaveAV1 said:

So which of Cardiff's players would you swap for ours? By your logic they must be the best players in this league and ours must be some of the worst. If that's the case why did Steve Bruce buy them?

No he said you can't negate players playing poorly, which is true, you could have a team full of ronaldos but if they are playing poorly can you fault the manager for buying them? 

[DaveAV1]

3 minutes ago, Tommo_b said:

No he said you can't negate players playing poorly, which is true, you could have a team full of ronaldos but if they are playing poorly can you fault the manager for buying them? 

No but you can fault him for not getting he best out of clearly talented players. 

I assume you'd put the fat one in goal? 

[TRO]

4 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

So which of Cardiff's players would you swap for ours? By your logic they must be the best players in this league and ours must be some of the worst. If that's the case why did Steve Bruce buy them?

Sorry TRO I just read your last line again, don't consider this an argument, consider it exploring opposing points of view. 

Dave I would have to watch Cardiff play to determine your question.

yeah ok, perhaps my last line was a bit out of character, sorry.

ps but what players do as opposed to their reputation is a whole different ball game.

pps Dave you can sit next to me and i will point out things to you and say is that Steve Bruces fault?

Edited September 8, 2017 by TRO

[VillaChris]

Really important we don't botch this next month up.

4 home games.

5 games against teams likely to be bottom half at the end of the season.

I'm expecting 4 wins which would get us on the edge of the top 6.

Steve Bruce was all chipper after the Norwich game but he could easily be back under serious pressure again especially if we mess up the two home games coming up.

[Mjvilla]

12 hours ago, TRO said:

I keep saying it, because i think its true.

being a great tactician as a manager will not negate poor players or players that play poorly.....or players that do not follow instruction or dismiss instruction......help.

i cannot spell this out more blantantly than i have.

if you disagree fine.....but don't argue with me.....i am not going to change my opinion.

What about players that do follow instruction but that instruction is completely incorrect on their own game? I.e. Hourihane

Who, imposed himself on the Norwich game brilliantly with a hat trick when under the correct instruction. Is it Hourihanes fault that he perhaps struggled when following the instruction to sit deeper as this isn't his natural game, or is it the person to give instruction? 

And then what happens if you don't have faith in what the manager says because it's wrong? 

Im not laying the entire blame at Bruce's door, I was with you all the way in sticking up for Bruce during the summer TRO, but I think you're wrong here. 

(Not arguing, just wanted to oppose your view)

[TRO]

4 hours ago, Mjvilla said:

What about players that do follow instruction but that instruction is completely incorrect on their own game? I.e. Hourihane

Who, imposed himself on the Norwich game brilliantly with a hat trick when under the correct instruction. Is it Hourihanes fault that he perhaps struggled when following the instruction to sit deeper as this isn't his natural game, or is it the person to give instruction? 

And then what happens if you don't have faith in what the manager says because it's wrong? 

Im not laying the entire blame at Bruce's door, I was with you all the way in sticking up for Bruce during the summer TRO, but I think you're wrong here. 

(Not arguing, just wanted to oppose your view)

No ,no thats fair comment....

but how do you know for sure it was down to the correct Instruction......you say " is it Hourihanes fault that he perhaps struggled when following the instruction to sit deeper as it isn't his natural game or is it the person to give the instruction.

1. We don't know what if any specific instruction was given to Hourihane before the Norwich game....we can only assume.....he may be just on form that day.....why would Bruce change what he believes in and then change back again at Bristol after seeing it work....doesn't make sense to me.....its more like players form for me something he has little control over.

2. Hourihane and Lansbury have had to improvise, due to Jedinak being out and Whelan just arriving, so its mainly down to redeployment.....necessity as opposed to choice.

3. I am only defending Bruce because I am unsure of the accusations laid against him....no other reason.....many for me, just me, are unconvincing.

4. But I am not sticking up for Bruce unconditionally, I am only defending him when speculation is aimed at him, i feel is dubious.....the author could be wrong, the author could be right...who knows?

You make some good points and points others have made, but we can all only speculate.....We don't know for sure what Bruce is saying.....judging by the amount of signings and changes he has made/makes i would doubt that they are all doing what he wants.....but that is just me speculating and deducing, but in his favour.

When anyone of us gets to speak with him, it might be good to ask him directly.

Ps The only thing for me right now, with the development of the team as such is results.....thats all I can really be sure of and its what will get him to sink or swim.

Edited September 8, 2017 by TRO

[GENTLEMAN]

We need this Villa to turn up every week now! 

 

[TRO]

28 minutes ago, GENTLEMAN said:

We need this Villa to turn up every week now! 

 

Its clear evidence the talent is there.....we just need the consistency of bonding it all together and believing in ourselves.

[DaveAV1]

7 hours ago, TRO said:

Dave I would have to watch Cardiff play to determine your question.

yeah ok, perhaps my last line was a bit out of character, sorry.

ps but what players do as opposed to their reputation is a whole different ball game.

pps Dave you can sit next to me and i will point out things to you and say is that Steve Bruces fault?

I'd love to sit with you for a game TRO, I'd even pay for the beer. My argument is, that whilst individual errors are abvioisly not down to any manager, the fact that so many players are playing well below the form they showed for previous clubs, makes it difficult not to come to the conclusion that the common denominator is the coaching at BMH. Yes I know none of us can go to watch training, but from the evidence we see on match day, things aren't right.

You've been watching football for long enough to know that the biggest influence on any squad of players is generally the manager. Yes individuals may not suit a certain manager, but generally the better managers have an ability to get the most out of a squad. If that wasn't the case you an me could do the job. Sometimes a manager just doesn't click, even the very best ones. For whatever reason, Mourinho's last spell at Chelsea all went wrong, who would have predicted that? 

I believe Steve Bruce has had enough time and investment to be doing considerably better than he is doing, on that we clearly disagree. However from his latest statement regarding results over the rest of this month, it does appear that Dr T has at least one eye on a managerial change. To make that statement and not at least prepare for the eventuality of sacking SB would in my view be criminal. I've been sat in the managerial change camp for a while as you know, but the board can't just sack him without a plan in place. If we do that we're just tossing a coin and hoping for the best, which isn't acceptable and would produce more questions than answers. 

[TRO]

4 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

I'd love to sit with you for a game TRO, I'd even pay for the beer. My argument is, that whilst individual errors are abvioisly not down to any manager, the fact that so many players are playing well below the form they showed for previous clubs, makes it difficult not to come to the conclusion that the common denominator is the coaching at BMH. Yes I know none of us can go to watch training, but from the evidence we see on match day, things aren't right.

You've been watching football for long enough to know that the biggest influence on any squad of players is generally the manager. Yes individuals may not suit a certain manager, but generally the better managers have an ability to get the most out of a squad. If that wasn't the case you an me could do the job. Sometimes a manager just doesn't click, even the very best ones. For whatever reason, Mourinho's last spell at Chelsea all went wrong, who would have predicted that? 

I believe Steve Bruce has had enough time and investment to be doing considerably better than he is doing, on that we clearly disagree. However from his latest statement regarding results over the rest of this month, it does appear that Dr T has at least one eye on a managerial change. To make that statement and not at least prepare for the eventuality of sacking SB would in my view be criminal. I've been sat in the managerial change camp for a while as you know, but the board can't just sack him without a plan in place. If we do that we're just tossing a coin and hoping for the best, which isn't acceptable and would produce more questions than answers. 

Dave i have done it with folk around me, but i have to be careful as to not spoil their match.....but I have pointed out things and the overwhelming comment is he's right,how can you blame the manager for that.

look some of the stuff against Norwich was very good and everything the fans have been waiting for.....so he and the players can do it.

I agree with much of what you say....but remember Ken McNaught played poor for 20 odd games and then bingo......Fabian Delph wasn't an immediate hit and Yorkie took his time. 

Steve Bruce won 15 games( League) that he presided over last season that is 48% win ratio.....how can you sack him after 5 games and 5 new players and 4 academy kids being groomed.

We win tomorrow and its a bit more palatable....but its a long season Dave.

However......I am with you all on here we need to produce more convincing levels of football.....but just note Derby were 2 goals for, behind us before tonight, so its hardly awe inspiring football, just one good night and one poor one for Hull.

Edited September 8, 2017 by TRO