Stevo985 Posted June 7, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 7, 2017 11 hours ago, Grasshopper said: Cue the nightmare fixtures 1st 10 games to the season. SHA H Boro A Fulham H SheffW A Reading H Derby A Leeds H Hull A Barnsley H Brentford A How many pts from that lot? 33 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Stevo985 said: 33 A little less likely than a goal difference of 85-0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 19 hours ago, Michael118 said: Managers or players don't succeed because of their past records. They succeed because they are better than their competition. When you have a manager or players that are "in another league" that is what will get you promoted. So considering how a manager or player would go in the Premier League is relevant long term and short term. Hoping a manager is still good enough (or the competition is still bad enough) based on past promotions without looking beyond that is fraught with danger. " Experience is the name we give to our mistakes" Oscar Wilde. so by deduction......"The more mistakes we make, the more experienced we get" Tro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted June 7, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, TRO said: " Experience is the name we give to our mistakes" Oscar Wilde. so by deduction......"The more mistakes we make, the more experienced we get" Tro That makes us pretty **** experienced then. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, BOF said: That makes us pretty **** experienced then. would say so , yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 15 hours ago, Grasshopper said: Cue the nightmare fixtures 1st 10 games to the season. SHA H Boro A Fulham H SheffW A Reading H Derby A Leeds H Hull A Barnsley H Brentford A How many pts from that lot? 48 I think Diane Abbott has been helping me with my maths. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyexists Posted June 7, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, TheStagMan said: 48 I think Diane Abbott has been helping me with my maths. Ooh, topical. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 7 hours ago, alreadyexists said: There is subjectivity in all things which generate opinion, but all opinions are based on the information available; "the full picture" is created from the present and past. So my point was/is that all opinions of the future are equally flawed. If you believe the evidence points to a projected failure, but I believe it points to a projected success, who is right? Neither of us, we can only know who has correctly guessed the future from our interpretations of the past once that future has come to pass. Ultimately it's one opinion vs another but one relies more on a personal account of the information and has a large element of skill involved and the other is much less subjective and disguised as a 'safer bet' but in reality is much riskier imo. Those who see him failing are flawed to the extent their personal interpretation is flawed whereas those who think he'll succeed are flawed by default because there is a lot more involved in predicting what will happen in the future than what has happened in the past. I'd much rather rely on what my eyes see that what the stats say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyexists Posted June 7, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 7, 2017 18 minutes ago, Michael118 said: Ultimately it's one opinion vs another but one relies more on a personal account of the information and has a large element of skill involved and the other is much less subjective and disguised as a 'safer bet' but in reality is much riskier imo. Those who see him failing are flawed to the extent their personal interpretation is flawed whereas those who think he'll succeed are flawed by default because there is a lot more involved in predicting what will happen in the future than what has happened in the past. I'd much rather rely on what my eyes see that what the stats say. I rely on what my eyes see too... but I think we're bordering on an agreement here Michael An opinion, whether that is based on stats, first hand accounts, secondary accounts, or any other fact, which predicts a positive outcome, and one which predicts a negative outcome are both equally based on past events, and so equally flawed. Occasionally being human, we go beyond what we really saw and imply meaning where there was none, or imagine things happened differently to how they really did, that opinion of the future is still just a prediction though and is arguably no less likely, although it's origin may be false. Not directed at you Michael, just food for thought as part of discussion; but there is very little to be gained by dogmatically sticking to a prediction of the future, and admonishing those with a contradictory prediction if both those predictions come from the same place and have the same basis... i.e. A subjective understanding of the past/present. Hmm, interesting stuff, nice chatting to you Michael. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 22 hours ago, The Fun Factory said: Priority 1- promotion. Priority 2- there is no priority 2 if we don't get promoted. Premier League is a completely different ball game- we would probably need a new team and quite possibly a new manager. But that is irrelevant until we are one of the 3 which go up. I will say again- this is where I differ from a lot of supporters - quite frankly I don't want Bruce meddling with our team in the prem- people can say all they want about him re: the championship and how many times he has got promotion - what has he ever achieved in the big boys leave and why has never got a top job ( until now) you might ask yourselves- I for one feel this is short sighted and just wanted a man in charge who can cut it at the top table and before I am shot down with the " this is the championship who would want to come here ?" Are we forgetting where RDM came from title/champions league and all that and Rafa stayed with the toon - so I fully believe we can head hunt in the upper echelons of management. For me Bruce was an easy quick fix - which I hope I am wrong about - but I feel it will all unravel in time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Dave J said: I will say again- this is where I differ from a lot of supporters - quite frankly I don't want Bruce meddling with our team in the prem- people can say all they want about him re: the championship and how many times he has got promotion - what has he ever achieved in the big boys leave and why has never got a top job ( until now) you might ask yourselves- I for one feel this is short sighted and just wanted a man in charge who can cut it at the top table and before I am shot down with the " this is the championship who would want to come here ?" Are we forgetting where RDM came from title/champions league and all that and Rafa stayed with the toon - so I fully believe we can head hunt in the upper echelons of management. For me Bruce was an easy quick fix - which I hope I am wrong about - but I feel it will all unravel in time. Is it not somewhat pie in the sky to expect a manager to come to a mid table Championship club, with no margin for error, and not only get them promoted, but follow up by establishing them in the Prem and pushing them to the upper echelons of the league and Europe? I mean, that's a 1 in a million manager that literally every club dreams of finding (and none have), and there is literally no margin for error as every year we spend in the Championship it becomes harder to get out, is it not a far more sensible approach to appoint managers to achieve the immediate goal, before replacing them with more competent managers to achieve the next step as our league position, and therefore pulling power, improves? As long as people in charge of recruiting ensure some degree of continuity (whether that be playing staff or coaches etc) and don't hop wildly from extreme to extreme with regards to managerial choices, surely that is the most effective way to build the club? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 We will probably get a tough game first. I bet we get boro away or Leeds away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 55 minutes ago, weedman said: Is it not somewhat pie in the sky to expect a manager to come to a mid table Championship club, with no margin for error, and not only get them promoted, but follow up by establishing them in the Prem and pushing them to the upper echelons of the league and Europe? I mean, that's a 1 in a million manager that literally every club dreams of finding (and none have), and there is literally no margin for error as every year we spend in the Championship it becomes harder to get out, is it not a far more sensible approach to appoint managers to achieve the immediate goal, before replacing them with more competent managers to achieve the next step as our league position, and therefore pulling power, improves? As long as people in charge of recruiting ensure some degree of continuity (whether that be playing staff or coaches etc) and don't hop wildly from extreme to extreme with regards to managerial choices, surely that is the most effective way to build the club? Well this is exactly my point - and where I differ from your good self and others - pie in the sky you ask ? Di Matteo is a title and champions league winning manager and we were able to attract him - Rafa stayed in Toon - we are Aston Villa and better than Mr Average Bruce in my humble opinion. Eddie Howe- Sean Dyche - Gareth Southgate are all coaches I would take above SB any day of the week - all capable of getting out of this league and pushing onwards upon our return to the prem again in my view. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Dave J said: Well this is exactly my point - and where I differ from your good self and others - pie in the sky you ask ? Di Matteo is a title and champions league winning manager and we were able to attract him - Rafa stayed in Toon - we are Aston Villa and better than Mr Average Bruce in my humble opinion. Eddie Howe- Sean Dyche - Gareth Southgate are all coaches I would take above SB any day of the week - all capable of getting out of this league and pushing onwards upon our return to the prem again in my view. Well we tried Di Matteo and it hardly proved that he could get us to mid table in the Championship, let alone to the top of the Premier League, the likes of Howe, Dyche or Southgate - firstly are they even attainable in our position? Most likely not, and secondly are they even capable of being up there and challenging with the likes of Mourinho or Guardiola etc? There's nothing to show that at the moment, meaning if we could hire them, while they may or may not be an improvement on SB, would they still not still have their own flaws, would they not still need replacing as we move on? Rather than looking for this mystical manager who not only happily join a team that just finished bottom half of the 2ne tier, but who is also capable of taking us right to the top, I ask again, would it not be more sensible to focus on achieving our first goal before moving on to the next stage? The way teams like Southampton did, before selling their best players every year caused them to stall, the way we shouldn't if the Doc is true to his word? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 While I am no Bruce fan, have Dyche, Howe or Southgate () actually done better things in management than Bruce? he took 2 small teams in Blues to 10th and Wigan to 11th plus Hull to a cup final 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Zatman said: While I am no Bruce fan, have Dyche, Howe or Southgate () actually done better things in management than Bruce? he took 2 small teams in Blues to 10th and Wigan to 11th plus Hull to a cup final Tim took us to one aswell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 36 minutes ago, weedman said: Well we tried Di Matteo and it hardly proved that he could get us to mid table in the Championship, let alone to the top of the Premier League, the likes of Howe, Dyche or Southgate - firstly are they even attainable in our position? Most likely not, and secondly are they even capable of being up there and challenging with the likes of Mourinho or Guardiola etc? There's nothing to show that at the moment, meaning if we could hire them, while they may or may not be an improvement on SB, would they still not still have their own flaws, would they not still need replacing as we move on? Rather than looking for this mystical manager who not only happily join a team that just finished bottom half of the 2ne tier, but who is also capable of taking us right to the top, I ask again, would it not be more sensible to focus on achieving our first goal before moving on to the next stage? The way teams like Southampton did, before selling their best players every year caused them to stall, the way we shouldn't if the Doc is true to his word? Whether Di Matteo failed or not is imaterial in this argument - my point is that we were able to attract a manager with an impressive CV to the championship - this is because of who we are - and our standing in the game and I believe we could do this again. Howe- Dyche - Southgate are coaches I believe could have been tempted out of their respective roles at the time of Bruce's appointment - Howe would have proved the most difficult in my view - but you should not blind you from trying. and I would repeat I do not want Bruce to drag us over the line only to hang around the basement of the Prem - can you imagine the quality of football ? Goodness only knows we have been dire and for 95% of his tenure have been safe. No I'm afraid he is just to bang average for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, Zatman said: While I am no Bruce fan, have Dyche, Howe or Southgate () actually done better things in management than Bruce? he took 2 small teams in Blues to 10th and Wigan to 11th plus Hull to a cup final No but I feel they all have brighter futures ahead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 So who is going to be the main 2 challengers at the top of the league this year? who are those 2 teams we need to equal or beat for points across the season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, Dave J said: Whether Di Matteo failed or not is imaterial in this argument - my point is that we were able to attract a manager with an impressive CV to the championship - this is because of who we are - and our standing in the game and I believe we could do this again. Howe- Dyche - Southgate are coaches I believe could have been tempted out of their respective roles at the time of Bruce's appointment - Howe would have proved the most difficult in my view - but you should not blind you from trying. and I would repeat I do not want Bruce to drag us over the line only to hang around the basement of the Prem - can you imagine the quality of football ? Goodness only knows we have been dire and for 95% of his tenure have been safe. No I'm afraid he is just to bang average for me We tempted him with his impressive CV for good reason, he's never had any sustained success and no Prem teams wanted to gamble on him. His promotion was some time ago and his Champions League was after being in charge for 5 minutes. Sherwood had an impressive win ratio but based solely on 6 months with a strong team it meant precisely nothing when it came to the job here. The sort of "impressive CV's" that we could attract would be currently out of work, recently sacked or with their stock low and stuck managing nothing sides. David Moyes at the time he moved to Man Utd was a sought after manager, MON was an absolute coup for us at the time. Those are the sort of managers with good CV's we're currently in a position to attract, the ones that had a bit of success which all came unraveled for 1 reason or another, would that really be better? And I repeat, I am not talking about keeping Bruce here forever, I am talking about getting out of this division, then moving onto a different man to push us on. Just because I believe that he will get us promoted absolutely does not mean I think he can push us on in the PL. I am talking about taking one step at a time, walking before we run, being prepared for the future but focusing on the here and now, and the here and now is the Championship, we need promotion or all the other worries about how we'll be in the PL are meaningless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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