Dave J Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, ThunderPower_14 said: Looking more closely at his record, his last 3 full seasons in the Championship have seen his side get promoted. That's an astonishing record in a difficult league. I'm not sure what more he could do at this level to prove that he's capable. He hasn't fared as well in the PL, but he hasn't exactly been managing established PL sides, and ultimately I don't care what his Premier League record is, his job at this stage is to get us promoted. He might not take us back to "where we'd like to be", but he's definitely got the runs on the board for me to be confident that he can achieve the first step in that, which is promotion to the Premier League. This is where we differ massively I absolutely care about his record in the PL and this is where the issue is for me- so on your side of the fence it's ok to get promoted and then struggle back in the prem? On my side of the fence I want a man in charge who can absolutely take us back to where we want to be- what's the use in getting promoted - bumming around the basement and getting relegated again in 1-2 seasons - I really don't think any of us want this surely not? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BOF Posted June 6, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 6, 2017 Just now, Dave J said: This is where we differ massively I absolutely care about his record in the PL and this is where the issue is for me- so on your side of the fence it's ok to get promoted and then struggle back in the prem? On my side of the fence I want a man in charge who can absolutely take us back to where we want to be- what's the use in getting promoted - bumming around the basement and getting relegated again in 1-2 seasons - I really don't think any of us want this surely not? Or, Bruce gets us up and then we change manager. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyexists Posted June 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 6, 2017 Our only goal this season is to get out of this league... I would like to worry about staying in the PL but that is so far away it's pointless. We might as well worry that Kodjia won't be good enough for a Champions League place... its of no consequence to our current goal/aim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 4 hours ago, Grasshopper said: The only reason why a Bruce supporter would be happy atm us because He hasnt signed/moved out anyone Preseasons games are not underway yet showing this dramatic upturn in playing style, team performance and winning games. When Bruce signs SJ, plays Hutton and Bacuna. HL&CL too deep, Hoofball and Hogan isolated then I assure you that NO Bruce supporter will be happy at 5 or so points from the 1st 4 or 5 games. can't argue with that GH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) Managers or players don't succeed because of their past records. They succeed because they are better than their competition. When you have a manager or players that are "in another league" that is what will get you promoted. So considering how a manager or player would go in the Premier League is relevant long term and short term. Hoping a manager is still good enough (or the competition is still bad enough) based on past promotions without looking beyond that is fraught with danger. Edited June 6, 2017 by Michael118 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, BOF said: Or, Bruce gets us up and then we change manager. Is that what you really want ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted June 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 6, 2017 Just now, Dave J said: Is that what you really want ? It was a 3rd scenario. The fence analogy implied only 2 scenarios. As for what I want. It would certainly do as a start, yes. Get out of the Chumpionship first and foremost. Then we can re-assess. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted June 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 6, 2017 2 hours ago, Grasshopper said: Bruce will himself prove he is not the man to get us promoted. My overriding hope is that he shows the board very quickly - pre-season or after less than 10 games - so they can take approriate action. I am very worried atm because it seems there is a lot of managerial movement going on and there are a number of candidates we could attract - coaches too. We need a manager who can attract GK, Ballplaying CB & DM, a set of coaches who will prepare players for "on the front foot" football. There is no team in CH who we should either fear or give too much respect to. Anything less than that will only mean we will be running with a pack of teams fighting - and maybe not even winning - for a playoff spot. Your arguments are becoming a bit blinkered now tbh! Why dont you do yourself a favor and sit back and see whether he actually is the man to get us up? (Its going to be tried that way whether you like it or not) If results start going downhill then jump on his back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, BOF said: Or, Bruce gets us up and then we change manager. I think that is almost certainly the plan. Xia paid Bruce a back handed compliment shortly after he became manager, along the lines that he was pleasantly surprised by Bruce and his attitude to learn. He went on to say that he might be ok to stay on after we were promoted after all. Thereby clearly indicating that the plan was for Bruce to get us up ( as a promotion expert) and then thank him very much and move on to another manager for the next phase of the plan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 11 minutes ago, BOF said: It was a 3rd scenario. The fence analogy implied only 2 scenarios. As for what I want. It would certainly do as a start, yes. Get out of the Chumpionship first and foremost. Then we can re-assess. Again this is where we differ - I would like a man at the helm who I believe can not only navigate out of the championship - but is capable of returning us to where we wish to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted June 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 6, 2017 2 minutes ago, Dave J said: Again this is where we differ - I would like a man at the helm who I believe can not only navigate out of the championship - but is capable of returning us to where we wish to be. I think that's unrealistic at this point in time. It's not impossible. But I think it is harder to attract a manager to the Championship if you think his normal hunting ground is the Europa League positions of the Premier League. Much better to make yourself attractive by being promoted first, and then going for said manager from a stronger position. Walk before you can run basically. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted June 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 6, 2017 8 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said: I think that is almost certainly the plan. Xia paid Bruce a back handed compliment shortly after he became manager, along the lines that he was pleasantly surprised by Bruce and his attitude to learn. He went on to say that he might be ok to stay on after we were promoted after all. Thereby clearly indicating that the plan was for Bruce to get us up ( as a promotion expert) and then thank him very much and move on to another manager for the next phase of the plan. I think he would be well capable of the next phase of the plan in keeping us afloat the next year. I think that would be his ceiling though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 2 minutes ago, Nigel said: I think he would be well capable of the next phase of the plan in keeping us afloat the next year. I think that would be his ceiling though! He's been more miss than hit in the Prem. In any given season he may be able to keep us up, but I don't think keeping us a float is anything that remotely mirrors the Doc's ambitions. But first of course there is the small matter of him being able to significantly up his game and actually get us promoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted June 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 6, 2017 4 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said: He's been more miss than hit in the Prem. In any given season he may be able to keep us up, but I don't think keeping us a float is anything that remotely mirrors the Doc's ambitions. But first of course there is the small matter of him being able to significantly up his game and actually get us promoted. The first season it will be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted June 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 6, 2017 24 minutes ago, Nigel said: The first season it will be! Well quite. Aren't they on record as acknowledging they will have to build 3 different teams? One to go up, one to stay up and then one to progress with. So they're under no illusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyexists Posted June 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Michael118 said: Managers or players don't succeed because of their past records. They succeed because they are better than their competition. When you have a manager or players that are "in another league" that is what will get you promoted. So considering how a manager or player would go in the Premier League is relevant long term and short term. Hoping a manager is still good enough (or the competition is still bad enough) based on past promotions without looking beyond that is fraught with danger. But surely the past and present is all we have to go on, as we cannot see the future. If we agree on that, then ANY assessment or judgement we make on a given manager is always based on the past and a 'projected/assumed' future. My point is; assuming that I believe Bruce is good enough to get us promoted, and assuming you believe he is not good enough to lead us in the Premier League are both just as flawed assumptions in that case, as both are made with only the present and history to guide us. No prediction is any less or more correct, and a reliance on x y and z has happened before, therefore it is likely to again, is all we have for any prediction. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted June 6, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 6, 2017 4 minutes ago, alreadyexists said: 1 hour ago, Michael118 said: Managers or players don't succeed because of their past records. They succeed because they are better than their competition. When you have a manager or players that are "in another league" that is what will get you promoted. So considering how a manager or player would go in the Premier League is relevant long term and short term. Hoping a manager is still good enough (or the competition is still bad enough) based on past promotions without looking beyond that is fraught with danger. But surely the past and present is all we have to go on, as we cannot see the future. If we agree on that, then ANY assessment or judgement we make on a given manager is always based on the past and a 'projected/assumed' future. My point is; assuming that I believe Bruce is good enough to get us promoted, and assuming you believe he is not good enough to lead us in the Premier League are both just as flawed assumptions in that case, as both are made with only the present and history to guide us. No prediction is any less or more correct, and a reliance on x y and z has happened before, therefore it is likely to again, is all we have for any prediction. Two good posts in fairness, and both eloquently putting forward both sides of the coin, and whilst doing so, articulating perfectly why the Bruce thread will always go around and around. Because right now there is no possible end to a discussion where everything is opinion; and opinion which has already been ... opined, for that matter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyexists Posted June 6, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 6, 2017 6 minutes ago, BOF said: Two good posts in fairness, and both eloquently putting forward both sides of the coin, and whilst doing so, articulating perfectly why the Bruce thread will always go around and around. Because right now there is no possible end to a discussion where everything is opinion; and opinion which has already been ... opined, for that matter. Thanks BOF. Very true, its postmodernism at its finest; there is nothing new to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Nigel said: Your arguments are becoming a bit blinkered now tbh! You are obviously of a different opinion. So are your arguements not blinkered? 1 hour ago, Nigel said: Why dont you do yourself a favor and sit back and see whether he actually is the man to get us up? (Its going to be tried that way whether you like it or not) if thats comforting for you YHO MHO is that it shouldnt be "tried" 1 hour ago, Nigel said: If results start going downhill then jump on his back! Am I not allowed to jump on his back for the results so far? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 57 minutes ago, alreadyexists said: But surely the past and present is all we have to go on, as we cannot see the future. If we agree on that, then ANY assessment or judgement we make on a given manager is always based on the past and a 'projected/assumed' future. My point is; assuming that I believe Bruce is good enough to get us promoted, and assuming you believe he is not good enough to lead us in the Premier League are both just as flawed assumptions in that case, as both are made with only the present and history to guide us. No prediction is any less or more correct, and a reliance on x y and z has happened before, therefore it is likely to again, is all we have for any prediction. Yeah but Bruce has 4 promotions already. So the 5th will be for us next season because the "BS-ers" say so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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