The Manager thread

[Zatman]

Scott Parker about to get sacked again. Maybe Bruges should hire Lampard next

[MrBlack]

@HanoiVillan. Replying to your last post in the palace thread as it is sits better here... that post was talking about using ratio of PL/EFL players to guide expectations around ratio of black managers 

....

 

That is slightly more relevant comparator than general population, but assumes you expect top flight footballers to make decent coaches, and this is rarely the case even for white players.

In line with per my previous post, coaches are, generally, older people. They're not people in the top flight today. And they're very rarely people that were in the top flight 10 years ago when the ratio of black players was lower than it is today. There will be a time lag before you see an uptick in BAME coaches that should be factored in. 

You could apply a comparator based on the ratio some years ago to perhaps give a better indicator. But if you look at the number of players from 10 years ago that have made decent coaches you won't find many of any ethnicity.

You could also point to the fact most PL managers are foreign, and hence, we should be looking at what leagues they played in and the respective ratios of black players/coaches in those locations for a more accurate housing guiding principle.

[HanoiVillan]

21 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

@HanoiVillan. Replying to your last post in the palace thread as it is sits better here... that post was talking about using ratio of PL/EFL players to guide expectations around ratio of black managers 

....

 

That is slightly more relevant comparator than general population, but assumes you expect top flight footballers to make decent coaches, and this is rarely the case even for white players.

In line with per my previous post, coaches are, generally, older people. They're not people in the top flight today. And they're very rarely people that were in the top flight 10 years ago when the ratio of black players was lower than it is today. There will be a time lag before you see an uptick in BAME coaches that should be factored in. 

You could apply a comparator based on the ratio some years ago to perhaps give a better indicator. But if you look at the number of players from 10 years ago that have made decent coaches you won't find many of any ethnicity.

You could also point to the fact most PL managers are foreign, and hence, we should be looking at what leagues they played in and the respective ratios of black players/coaches in those locations for a more accurate housing guiding principle.

Copied post:

Sure, I mean the reason for giving the EFL figure was an acknowledgement that perhaps top flight players *specifically* are less likely to be coaches (though of course some do, eg Arteta, and all of Parker, Gerrard, Lampard and Vieira were managing this season), but at the end of the day it's very unusual for a manager to be anything other than a former player and whichever level we choose to look at, black people are statistically hugely over-represented as players compared to their share of the population. So I think it's a lot more relevant as a comparator, not slightly more. 

[MrBlack]

2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Copied post:

Sure, I mean the reason for giving the EFL figure was an acknowledgement that perhaps top flight players *specifically* are less likely to be coaches (though of course some do, eg Arteta, and all of Parker, Gerrard, Lampard and Vieira were managing this season), but at the end of the day it's very unusual for a manager to be anything other than a former player and whichever level we choose to look at, black people are statistically hugely over-represented as players compared to their share of the population. So I think it's a lot more relevant as a comparator, not slightly more. 

Fair enough. I'm not sure what the stats are in terms of ex footballers, the level they reached as footballers and the percentage that became coaches.

If it is a majority then you have a valid point about the general population not making a good comparator in that case.

But I'd still say that using current stats won't give a valid ratio to be expecting.

Average age of managers in the pl was 50 yrs old a few seasons back. It may be slightly younger now but I can't be bothered to calc. Assume most footballers retired around 35 about 15 years ago, you'd need to be looking at stats from around 15 years ago to get the ratio.

And also, the fact that only 7/20 of the PL managers are home nations (at a rough calculation) suggests coaching standards in the UK are poor as a whole, and not just for the minority. 

[HanoiVillan]

3 hours ago, MrBlack said:

Fair enough. I'm not sure what the stats are in terms of ex footballers, the level they reached as footballers and the percentage that became coaches.

If it is a majority then you have a valid point about the general population not making a good comparator in that case.

But I'd still say that using current stats won't give a valid ratio to be expecting.

Average age of managers in the pl was 50 yrs old a few seasons back. It may be slightly younger now but I can't be bothered to calc. Assume most footballers retired around 35 about 15 years ago, you'd need to be looking at stats from around 15 years ago to get the ratio.

And also, the fact that only 7/20 of the PL managers are home nations (at a rough calculation) suggests coaching standards in the UK are poor as a whole, and not just for the minority. 

Would just make a couple of points in response:

1) I don't have the data on what the ethnic composition of the PL was in 2008 (ie, 15 years ago) but I'm skeptical that it was massively different. Even if the proportion of non-white players was 10%, even 20%, lower than it is now, it would still leave a very disproportionate outcome.. 

2) There's a different way of analysing the data, which is to say 'whatever the number of players of each background, what proportion has found a coaching or managerial job since?' And in response to that, research shows:

'Last year, only 10 percent of Black players to retire since 2004 had any managerial or coaching position at a professional English club; for white players, the figure was 50 percent, according to Szymanski.' (from: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-arent-there-more-black-managers-in-english-soccer/ )

3) You make a very good point about the lack of home nations managers at the top of English football. There are more Basque managers now than English in the top flight; obviously if you bring in coaches from significantly less diverse places that will have an impact on the proportion of non-white managers you might get. But against this, we have to consider that the situation is no better further down the pyramid, where managers are almost entirely from the home nations. 

[sne]

 

[MrBlack]

14 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Would just make a couple of points in response:

1) I don't have the data on what the ethnic composition of the PL was in 2008 (ie, 15 years ago) but I'm skeptical that it was massively different. Even if the proportion of non-white players was 10%, even 20%, lower than it is now, it would still leave a very disproportionate outcome.. 

2) There's a different way of analysing the data, which is to say 'whatever the number of players of each background, what proportion has found a coaching or managerial job since?' And in response to that, research shows:

'Last year, only 10 percent of Black players to retire since 2004 had any managerial or coaching position at a professional English club; for white players, the figure was 50 percent, according to Szymanski.' (from: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-arent-there-more-black-managers-in-english-soccer/ )

3) You make a very good point about the lack of home nations managers at the top of English football. There are more Basque managers now than English in the top flight; obviously if you bring in coaches from significantly less diverse places that will have an impact on the proportion of non-white managers you might get. But against this, we have to consider that the situation is no better further down the pyramid, where managers are almost entirely from the home nations. 

Useful info, and I'm sure if not data was readily available it would only confirm the view.

The last bit nails it for me. I think the position lower down the pyramid is the key to increasing the top flight representation. That is where the increase needs to start.

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 hours ago, tomav84 said:

nominated for manager of the month

per my post in the mings thread, utterly pointless exercise as arteta is also nominated and arsenal unfortunately have more worldwide fans than us

Edit: I actually stand corrected:

https://www.premierleague.com/awards/explained

I love Emery and what he is doing. But if Arteta wins the league while this City team is around that’s a pretty incredible achievement . He’ll deserve all the praise and awards he gets.

[tomav84]

39 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I love Emery and what he is doing. But if Arteta wins the league while this City team is around that’s a pretty incredible achievement . He’ll deserve all the praise and awards he gets.

absolutely...and whilst i'd rather them win it than city, watching the arsenal meltdown if they **** this up would be pretty funny

[Vive_La_Villa]

7 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

absolutely...and whilst i'd rather them win it than city, watching the arsenal meltdown if they **** this up would be pretty funny

I’d rather City win. Arsenal fans are unbearable. City fans….well I don’t know any. 

[sne]

44 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I’d rather City win. Arsenal fans are unbearable. City fans….well I don’t know any. 

Same. Never met anyone who has ever met a Man City fan. Sure they exist somewhere but I've yet to meet any.

Let City win it to emphasize even more what bribes and cheating get's you. Will make the PL look even more embarrassing when they in the end do f all about their systematic cheating.

Edited March 23, 2023 by sne

[tomav84]

37 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I’d rather City win. Arsenal fans are unbearable. City fans….well I don’t know any. 

pay a visit to the etihad sometime...horrible, horrible bunch. arsenal fans are just annoying, city fans are proper ghastly though

[The Fun Factory]

3 hours ago, MrBlack said:

Useful info, and I'm sure if not data was readily available it would only confirm the view.

The last bit nails it for me. I think the position lower down the pyramid is the key to increasing the top flight representation. That is where the increase needs to start.

The pyramid and the premier league have a very faint connection in terms of managerial jobs. It is very rare for a lower league manager to be given a chance in the top flight unless they get the team promoted.  Michael Duff is doing a great job at Barnsley but I would be staggered if he was offered a premier league role  any time soon.

Edit- didn't realise this was about bame managers, thought was about British ones.

Edited March 23, 2023 by The Fun Factory

[Villaphan04]

 

[Demitri_C]

Its incredible how one bad job could make your managerial value plummet. Everyone wanted potter before chelsea game. Now even Leicester fans dont even want him

[Zatman]

3 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Its incredible how one bad job could make your managerial value plummet. Everyone wanted potter before chelsea game. Now even Leicester fans dont even want him

Did they? Was a lot of debate on here that he was overrated when we were looking to replace Smith

[Demitri_C]

48 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Did they? Was a lot of debate on here that he was overrated when we were looking to replace Smith

Go back alot of people not just on thia forum but at other clubs wanted potter

[a-k]

On 08/03/2023 at 08:49, Zatman said:

Scott Parker about to get sacked again. Maybe Bruges should hire Lampard next

Can't be many managers to be sacked twice in a season, are there?

[Rds1983]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

Go back alot of people not just on thia forum but at other clubs wanted potter

There were lot's if people getting very excited about him but there was also a fair few people thinking he was overrated. 

[tinker]

You cant judge Potter on his stint with Chelsea,  the owner has destabilised the whole club with his moronic decisions. 

I think Potter is a good manager who will need time to build a team and get them playing for him,  Chelsea and their Billy big bollox players were never gonna listen to him once a few results went bad.