Scott Hogan

[Stevo985]

5 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I'm not sure about that kodjia has been so hit and miss thia year. Hogan deserves a opportunity at some point 

This is the weird thing.

Kodjia has been excellent for us in previous seasons. And this season has been hit and miss.

 

Hogan has been completely shit for us since day 1.

 

Yet Hogan gets more benefit of the doubt than Kodjia.
Kodjia has shown he can do it in a Villa shirt. And he does more than just tap the ball in when it's laid on a plate 8 yards out.

Hogan has done absolutely **** all.

[Jareth]

Just now, Stevo985 said:

Hogan has done absolutely **** all.

If we're going to see football ala Brentford then I think Hogan or Kodjia will excel up front. So yes, I agree, Kodjia's done more and possibly deserves the nod - but can't see why DS would not use Hogan as much as possible given previous success under him. Great to have the choice, and I think injuries will play a big part.

[DCJonah]

1 hour ago, Dante_Lockhart said:

He scored 21 goals in 36 appearances for Brentford, so if he had a good spell of 30 games that's only 6 shit ones. I can accept that.

That's his whole career. He is 27 years old and we are talking about one small period where he was excellent. 

Everything else has either been at a low level of football or he has been shit. Yet he is spoke about as if he has been a proven top striker all his life and we are the problem.

[DCJonah]

2 hours ago, wilko154 said:

 

Watch this video and then tell me why he needs a good touch when playing in a team providing assists on tap.

If we get the midfield setup in the correct way with Hogan playing on the shoulder then he will bang in goals. He's a poacher, not a playmaker or a target man.

Why does a professional player need a good touch? Is that a serious question?

The idea that all we need to do is thread through balls and he will score loads is laughable. 

[StefanAVFC]

Quote

'I knocked on his door a couple of days before the window shut just to find out what was going on. Sheff United were very interested.

'I wasn't allowed to leave. He was adamant that he didn't want me to go, he said I had a future playing as a striker and I was assured we were going to change the way we were playing.

Bruce doesn't sign a CB and lets one go.

Bruce signs a striker and doesn't let one go even though he wanted to.

Logic.

[DCJonah]

2 hours ago, mjmooney said:

EXACTLY what all of us on VT (except D C Jonah) were saying all along. While Bruce told him to 'work hard' and stuck with hoofball. 

Yeah, its all the systems fault. He's clearly amazing and well worth the money spent.

[Eastie]

Can understand his frustration but when given his chances he has failed to take them , maybe smith will be a new start for him . 

[wilko154]

4 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Why does a professional player need a good touch? Is that a serious question?

The idea that all we need to do is thread through balls and he will score loads is laughable. 

There's a difference between a striker controlling a ball played to him when one on one with a defender or a striker, in comparison to a striker who has dropped deep into the midfield to pick up the ball after not receiving any service for 90 minutes and then having to make up 60 yards alone.

There's also a difference between a 5 foot 9 striker receiving a ball to feet or to run onto, in comparison to a 5 foot 9 striker having a ball hoofed long to him and then having to compete against a 6 foot 4 centre half to win possession.

 

I'm not saying Scott Hogan is instantly going to become a 20 goal a season striker again. However if you watch the video of the goals he scored for Brentford, have we really supplied him with chances like that since he has been at Villa?

[Demitri_C]

38 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

This is the weird thing.

Kodjia has been excellent for us in previous seasons. And this season has been hit and miss.

 

Hogan has been completely shit for us since day 1.

 

Yet Hogan gets more benefit of the doubt than Kodjia.
Kodjia has shown he can do it in a Villa shirt. And he does more than just tap the ball in when it's laid on a plate 8 yards out.

Hogan has done absolutely **** all.

The thing is though I think Hogan was not played to his strengths under bruce. Kodjia has. He is very inconsistent in my opinion and gets veey irritated.

'He reminds me of drogba with some of his antics also which really frustrated me. Hogan is actually a very intelligent player .You look at the runs he does. Hogan thiugh to me looks like a confidence player. He needs someone to put their arm around him

[Stevo985]

13 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

The thing is though I think Hogan was not played to his strengths under bruce. Kodjia has. He is very inconsistent in my opinion and gets veey irritated.

'He reminds me of drogba with some of his antics also which really frustrated me. Hogan is actually a very intelligent player .You look at the runs he does. Hogan thiugh to me looks like a confidence player. He needs someone to put their arm around him

I'm not sure it's possible for me to disagree with this post more. Especially the part about Hogan's runs. His runs are senseless, which is part of his problem.

 

I just don't see why so many excuses are made for Hogan. Oh we don't play the right system, oh he plays on the shoulder, oh he needs the ball in front of him not to his feet, oh he's a poacher, oh he needs the ball in the box, oh he's got no confidence, oh he needs somebody to put his arm around him, oh he needs the ball laid off to him 3 yards out with an open goal.

Maybe he's just shit? A good player would make something out of the situation. He'd show flashes of what he can do when he finds himself in situations that suit him. Hogan has done none of that.

 

If Smith is going to come in and improve the fortunes of our strikers then why is this effect just going to be on Hogan and not our other, much better, strikers?

If we're suddenly creating loads of chances for our attackers, I know who I want on the end of them. And it's not Scott Hogan.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Stevo985

[Delphouneso]

44 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

This is the weird thing.

Kodjia has been excellent for us in previous seasons. And this season has been hit and miss.

 

Hogan has been completely shit for us since day 1.

 

Yet Hogan gets more benefit of the doubt than Kodjia.
Kodjia has shown he can do it in a Villa shirt. And he does more than just tap the ball in when it's laid on a plate 8 yards out.

Hogan has done absolutely **** all.

I don't think anyone is saying drop Kodjia for Hogan, they're saying we have a new manager so everyone gets a clean slate, and having had one of his better spells under our new manager it might be reasonable to expect Hogan to be one of those to make the most of that clean slate. I'm fairly certain no one is saying Hogan is the better of the two players. 

I also think it's fairly obvious why fans might be quicker to get on Kodjia's back than Hogan's, their perceived attitude to the game couldn't be more different. Hogan has always come across as a decent bloke with a decent attitude, fans like that. Kodjia behaves like a petulant child when things aren't going his way.

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, Delphouneso said:

I also think it's fairly obvious why fans might be quicker to get on Kodjia's back than Hogan's, their perceived attitude to the game couldn't be more different. Hogan has always come across as a decent bloke with a decent attitude, fans like that. Kodjia behaves like a petulant child when things aren't going his way.

Where has this Kodjia petulant child stuff come from? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Player who has actually performed, largely, very well for us gets labelled a petulant child.

Player who has done nothing but look like a competition winner gets labelled a "decent bloke with a decent attitude"

 

And even if true, attitude only gets you so far. I'd have a bloody great attitude if I signed for Villa. I'd still be terrible at football.

[AVFCinSpain]

In re-joining this forum, it seems as far as Hogan is concerned, the views of his capabilities are almost two extremes. IMO, under the new management team, all the squad should be given the opportunity to demonstrate if they can fit in the playing ethic Smith wants. Perhaps it will be fairer to make judgements in the new year, assuming the majority have had decent chances of showing their capabilities.

Kodjia v Hogan, we probably will need them both for rotation

[Delphouneso]

23 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Where has this Kodjia petulant child stuff come from? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Player who has actually performed, largely, very well for us gets labelled a petulant child.

Player who has done nothing but look like a competition winner gets labelled a "decent bloke with a decent attitude"

 

And even if true, attitude only gets you so far. I'd have a bloody great attitude if I signed for Villa. I'd still be terrible at football.

 

His perceived attitude problems probably arise largely from his body language on the pitch, much the same way we all thought Jordan Ayew was a miserable bugger. And perhaps his reputation for throwing his toys out of the pram at Bristol (though largely excusable when you factor in having to listen to Lee Johnson day in day out). I don't think anyone is saying that makes him a bad player, you seem to be zoning in on the wrong points in order to create conflict where there isn't any. The concept of humans giving more chances to nice humans over not so nice humans isn't a difficult one to understand. Kodjia is a good player, I don't think many Villa fans would disagree with that. Kodjia is and has been better for Villa than Scott Hogan, I don't think many people would disagree with that. I also think they're both behind Tammy in the pecking order.

I don't really understand the overall point you're trying to make. You seem to be criticising fans for being optimistic that our new manager may be able to get something more out of a player most of us had written off as a waste of £13m. Even if it's just to raise his market value, or to play a bit part in cup games, it's not a bad thing, right?

Edited October 11, 2018 by Delphouneso

[blandy]

54 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Where has this Kodjia petulant child stuff come from? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Player who has actually performed, largely, very well for us gets labelled a petulant child.

I think it's true that both of Hogan and Jimmy Danger are confidence players. When they're confident and in form, they both look dangerous and good forwards for this level. When out of confidence, their form drops, their body language isn't too good and Kodjia in particular can be quarrelsome with refs and opponents, and once or twice with team mates who tell him to chase or track or pass or whatever.

But they're both decent players and given a different manager may well thrive again.

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

I'm not sure it's possible for me to disagree with this post more. Especially the part about Hogan's runs. His runs are senseless, which is part of his problem.

 

I just don't see why so many excuses are made for Hogan. Oh we don't play the right system, oh he plays on the shoulder, oh he needs the ball in front of him not to his feet, oh he's a poacher, oh he needs the ball in the box, oh he's got no confidence, oh he needs somebody to put his arm around him, oh he needs the ball laid off to him 3 yards out with an open goal.

Maybe he's just shit? A good player would make something out of the situation. He'd show flashes of what he can do when he finds himself in situations that suit him. Hogan has done none of that.

 

If Smith is going to come in and improve the fortunes of our strikers then why is this effect just going to be on Hogan and not our other, much better, strikers?

If we're suddenly creating loads of chances for our attackers, I know who I want on the end of them. And it's not Scott Hogan.

I think time will tell now with Hogan despite our differences on this subject. If he can't perform under smith who got the best of him at Brentford then he has no excuses now to hide behind.

I think we will see alot better from Hogan with Smith here

[DCJonah]

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I think time will tell now with Hogan despite our differences on this subject. If he can't perform under smith who got the best of him at Brentford then he has no excuses now to hide behind.

I think we will see alot better from Hogan with Smith here

He can't get worse, so i expect some improvement. I'll be amazed if its enough to keep kodjia or abraham out the team. 

I'd also add goal scoring isn't a major issue at the moment. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

12 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

He can't get worse, so i expect some improvement. I'll be amazed if its enough to keep kodjia or abraham out the team. 

I'd also add goal scoring isn't a major issue at the moment. 

I think his best best will either be as a sub, or via injury to another player.

Hell, the manager might actually make changes before the 75th minute and be "bold".

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, Delphouneso said:

 

 

I don't really understand the overall point you're trying to make. You seem to be criticising fans for being optimistic that our new manager may be able to get something more out of a player most of us had written off as a waste of £13m. Even if it's just to raise his market value, or to play a bit part in cup games, it's not a bad thing, right?

Nope that's not my point at all. I'm sharing in that optimism. The best result for everyone is that Smith turns Hogan into a good player.

[Stevo985]

39 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I think time will tell now with Hogan despite our differences on this subject. If he can't perform under smith who got the best of him at Brentford then he has no excuses now to hide behind.

I think we will see alot better from Hogan with Smith here

I think we'll see better too. I just don't think Smith is going to turn him into a good striker because he isn't one, and it grinds on me that other players who have actually performed for us don't get the same benefit of the doubt as he does.

But i do honestly share the optimism that Smith can get the best out of him.