Steve Bruce

[PieFacE]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

It wasn't. There's another reason I don't quite believe that statement.

He must have had one of @bobzy's secret streams  

It was televised, the away leg. I remember watching it in a pub. 

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, PieFacE said:

It was televised, the away leg. I remember watching it in a pub. 

He's talking about the home fixture. Last game of the season.

[PieFacE]

Just now, Stevo985 said:

He's talking about the home fixture. Last game of the season.

Oh apologies I misread. My bad. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

I just had a thought. People are saying that Bruce is to blame for players that performed well for other teams and look poor for us.

Well in that case it means Bruce performed well as a manager for other teams in this league and is performing poorly for us. 

So who is to blame for that? The club maybe? 

[TRO]

18 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I just had a thought. People are saying that Bruce is to blame for players that performed well for other teams and look poor for us.

Well in that case it means Bruce performed well as a manager for other teams in this league and is performing poorly for us. 

So who is to blame for that? The club maybe? 

Equally, if the blame is with SB......why is Kodjia, so competent.

does he train seperately?

[mykeyb]

15 hours ago, TRO said:

Its interesting how all these seasoned Pros' , who have played for accomplished managers, feel so comfortable signing for Steve Bruce....if he was so bad as some paint, would they come here. nah!

I have heard no adverse from anyone in the industry.....even the Blues fans who will pick on anything are quiet when i talk of Steve Bruce....wished we still had him is the utterings.

It will be interesting to here from the Naysayers, when we tear it up.

Well Sherwoood had his supporters in the media and in the game.

I like most fans will continue to judge him on how "his" team plays and the results they achieve. I couldnt give a flying fig if two senior players without contracts were happy to sign for either the club or the manager.

[VILLAMARV]

On 7/20/2017 at 10:47, striker said:

Really good post mate. An enjoyable read.

I think the point that I and others are making is that even when Jedinak did return from injury those more offensive players still struggled to create or score goals. With the added protection from Jedinak back from injury Bruce still seemingly set the team up in a defensive manner relying on Kodjia to nick a goal and then trying to defend that. Imo that setup isn't going to get you automatic promotion when you factor in the human capacity to make mistakes.

If you take how Newcastle played in the Championship as an example last season. Rafa generally seen as a defensive manager did however show very little respect to Championship teams with a squad not much better than Villa's. He had Championship teams on the back foot from the off and went for the throat. They will be playing in the Premiership next season.

Bruce however lost the initiative from the start against Championship teams by paying them too much respect and sitting back.He lost the aura of AVFC by doing that and Championship teams quickly gained confidence in playing Villa. Some of those teams couldn't believe their luck how much respect Bruce was paying them. Villa are still in the Championship.

I think the problem lies more with Bruce's system of play with or without a much lorded DM but there can be no more excuses if Villa's performances and results don't improve.

And I agree with most of this. Newcastle is/was a completely different proposition to us imo and I don't think any comparison is valid or helpful. I also don't believe Bruce is guilty of showing respect, he's just doing what he does. Any Aura was lost long before Bruce got here. But you're spot on with the rest. I've not dug a big hole for myself yet and I think @TRO and others might be getting their hopes up a bit as far as Whelan is concerned. No doubt that even with our best team available and on the pitch last year we were pretty shocking, the football was shocking. We didn't score anywhere near enough goals. We conceded too many late goals. Completely impotent going forward without Kodjia and Adomah as you're right to point out. We were also pretty shocking at the back without Taylor, Chester, Baker and Jedinak though and that's where I totally agree with TRO as the threads from last year show, that our players were lacking 'the basics' in some key areas.

Imo it's not realistic to expect automatic promotion considering what the front 5 have shown so far, when you think about how much they collectively have to improve - including Kodjia and when you factor in Bruce. Who has never ever walked this league. And whose teams I've watched over the years were, are and are going to be, how do we put this nicely? Pragmatic? Ponderous? Effective? Hard working?

When Bruce got here he parked the bus we sat back we looked more negative than under RDM only here's the paradox. Results improved. Counting the loss to Luton RDM got 11 games. Bruce had 11 games with exactly the same squad before the January window arrived so not an ideal comparison as with all these things, but as fair a comparison as you're probably going to get. RDM W1-D7-L4 against BRUCE W7-D3-L2. And for me, however hard a watch we are it's hard to ignore those numbers. That's play off form right there and that's with Westwood, Ayew, Gestede, Bacuna, Gardner - the lot of them.

Our form, to put it bluntly, went to shit over Jan/Feb and that's certainly hard to ignore aswell. However it's easier to understand when you think of how many players came and went straight out of and into the first team GK, DL, MC, ST at the same time as key players to us like Jedinak, Kodjia and Adomah being away or injured. What team isn't going to suffer a dip in form when 7 of the first team are either new or squad players without anything much about them? And the 'others' include Hutton? It also to me highlighted how unbalanced and lacking in any effective options the squad was (and to some extent still is). Lansbury and Hourihane must have been so elated to have finally got the chance to play alongside Bacuna. And, we needed this, the squad needed this, even if the result was short term upheaval. BRUCE W0-D1-L7

End of Feb we get some players back, things have a little time to settle and we go on a run of winning 7 out of the next 8 games. Starting at home to Derby after Newcastle away, the mantra being "gotta keep in the hunt for the play offs" and all of that. Around April reality dawns on even the most optimistic of us all with the Burton draw, we pick up some injuries, there's nothing to play for and the season fizzles out. Except against SHA of course, where there was pride to play for. And we won. BRUCE W8-D2-L4.

I think that's a pretty fair appraisal of Bruce's tenure so far. I think it shows he can motivate players whether he rates them or not. I think it shows he can take over a failing squad that isn't his and turn it around. I think it shows he can chuck half a new team together half way through a season and ride out the initial upheaval and get them grinding out results. I think it shows (as does his record) that given a whole season, and like you say, without the excuses, we can expect the playoffs, maybe more. Playing this turgid brand of football that he has. That we knew we were in for before he got here.

Like you say the problem with Bruce is his system (or lack of it) and he will 'live or die' by the results. I think the fans of his other clubs would say the same thing too. He's not joking when he says he's waited his whole managerial career for a chance like this. He's also not going to abandon the principles that got him here now he's got that chance. I don't think it's realistic to expect that of him. But then back to that paradox. He's had some relative success with it, of the kind that we would snap someones arm off for in a heartbeat. So maybe, just maybe there's a bit more to some good man management, a solid defensive structure, a good work ethic, decent players, a balanced squad, the right 'blend' of experience/youth and a bit of time to get them together than we're giving him credit for? If we didn't understand that as fans when we were watching teams like Leeds and Cardiff do us over last year then we didn't learn anything from our mistakes.

[bannedfromHandV]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Equally, if the blame is with SB......why is Kodjia, so competent.

does he train seperately?

It's just blind luck isn't it.

 

Surely by now you know, like the others who know that he's a complete moron who knows nothing about football, despite having been a professional for the past 30 odd years.

[Vive_La_Villa]

The thing is even out of the 15 games we won under Bruce fans claims we scraped them or the football was poor etc. But how many teams did Newcastle brush aside?  They just won the games however it took. 

[DaveAV1]

18 hours ago, TRO said:

Dave, I take your point, but i have seen similar situations in the past, when in a rebuild era, players come in and very little happens, then wham, that one player seems to light the touch paper, thats why i put so much emphasis on balance.

I am hoping/expecting GW is that man.

I think that there is a possibility that everything could click and if we put points on the board confidence will undoubtably grow. GW or JT or anyone else may be the catalyst for this. Equally we could continue where we left off last season. No one really knows, we're all just offering our opinions. Fingers crossed we get the TRO version .

[Vive_La_Villa]

33 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I think that there is a possibility that everything could click and if we put points on the board confidence will undoubtably grow. GW or JT or anyone else may be the catalyst for this. Equally we could continue where we left off last season. No one really knows, we're all just offering our opinions. Fingers crossed we get the TRO version .

I don't think we'll be the prettiest team to watch but I do think we'll get a knack of winning games. Being the only team last season to manage 5 wins in a row is proof of this.

[striker]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

And I agree with most of this. Newcastle is/was a completely different proposition to us imo and I don't think any comparison is valid or helpful. I also don't believe Bruce is guilty of showing respect, he's just doing what he does. Any Aura was lost long before Bruce got here. But you're spot on with the rest. I've not dug a big hole for myself yet and I think @TRO and others might be getting their hopes up a bit as far as Whelan is concerned. No doubt that even with our best team available and on the pitch last year we were pretty shocking, the football was shocking. We didn't score anywhere near enough goals. We conceded too many late goals. Completely impotent going forward without Kodjia and Adomah as you're right to point out. We were also pretty shocking at the back without Taylor, Chester, Baker and Jedinak though and that's where I totally agree with TRO as the threads from last year show, that our players were lacking 'the basics' in some key areas.

Imo it's not realistic to expect automatic promotion considering what the front 5 have shown so far, when you think about how much they collectively have to improve - including Kodjia and when you factor in Bruce. Who has never ever walked this league. And whose teams I've watched over the years were, are and are going to be, how do we put this nicely? Pragmatic? Ponderous? Effective? Hard working?

When Bruce got here he parked the bus we sat back we looked more negative than under RDM only here's the paradox. Results improved. Counting the loss to Luton RDM got 11 games. Bruce had 11 games with exactly the same squad before the January window arrived so not an ideal comparison as with all these things, but as fair a comparison as you're probably going to get. RDM W1-D7-L4 against BRUCE W7-D3-L2. And for me, however hard a watch we are it's hard to ignore those numbers. That's play off form right there and that's with Westwood, Ayew, Gestede, Bacuna, Gardner - the lot of them.

Our form, to put it bluntly, went to shit over Jan/Feb and that's certainly hard to ignore aswell. However it's easier to understand when you think of how many players came and went straight out of and into the first team GK, DL, MC, ST at the same time as key players to us like Jedinak, Kodjia and Adomah being away or injured. What team isn't going to suffer a dip in form when 7 of the first team are either new or squad players without anything much about them? And the 'others' include Hutton? It also to me highlighted how unbalanced and lacking in any effective options the squad was (and to some extent still is). Lansbury and Hourihane must have been so elated to have finally got the chance to play alongside Bacuna. And, we needed this, the squad needed this, even if the result was short term upheaval. BRUCE W0-D1-L7

End of Feb we get some players back, things have a little time to settle and we go on a run of winning 7 out of the next 8 games. Starting at home to Derby after Newcastle away, the mantra being "gotta keep in the hunt for the play offs" and all of that. Around April reality dawns on even the most optimistic of us all with the Burton draw, we pick up some injuries, there's nothing to play for and the season fizzles out. Except against SHA of course, where there was pride to play for. And we won. BRUCE W8-D2-L4.

I think that's a pretty fair appraisal of Bruce's tenure so far. I think it shows he can motivate players whether he rates them or not. I think it shows he can take over a failing squad that isn't his and turn it around. I think it shows he can chuck half a new team together half way through a season and ride out the initial upheaval and get them grinding out results. I think it shows (as does his record) that given a whole season, and like you say, without the excuses, we can expect the playoffs, maybe more. Playing this turgid brand of football that he has. That we knew we were in for before he got here.

Like you say the problem with Bruce is his system (or lack of it) and he will 'live or die' by the results. I think the fans of his other clubs would say the same thing too. He's not joking when he says he's waited his whole managerial career for a chance like this. He's also not going to abandon the principles that got him here now he's got that chance. I don't think it's realistic to expect that of him. But then back to that paradox. He's had some relative success with it, of the kind that we would snap someones arm off for in a heartbeat. So maybe, just maybe there's a bit more to some good man management, a solid defensive structure, a good work ethic, decent players, a balanced squad, the right 'blend' of experience/youth and a bit of time to get them together than we're giving him credit for? If we didn't understand that as fans when we were watching teams like Leeds and Cardiff do us over last year then we didn't learn anything from our mistakes.

Not sure if comparing Villa to Newcastle last season is as invalid or unhelpful as you state but to debate it we would be running around in circles for the next two or three pages of this thread. Anyway it was more the attitude of Rafa I was getting at in how he got his players to approach playing Championship teams.

Newcastle stamped their authority on games from the off while Villa did exactly the opposite. That may very well be down to the way in which Bruce's teams generally play as opposed to showing teams too much respect but Bruce's Hull did score plenty of goals gaining promotion while Villa are still struggling to do that even in pre season against respectively inferior opposition. So there's something not quite right.

It may well be that Tro's point needing a better DM to allow Lansbury and Hourihane to play further forward may create more goal scoring opportunities but it didn't with Jedinak last season.

So what if you are correct and the signings of Whelan and Elmo make no difference to the way Villa play next season because Bruce simply won't change his style of play? If that is so I do not think Bruce will see Christmas as Villa manager.

[DaveAV1]

8 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I don't think we'll be the prettiest team to watch but I do think we'll get a knack of winning games. Being the only team last season to manage 5 wins in a row is proof of this.

Conversely not many lost 8 in a row, or what ever number it was. Certainly no one who got promoted. The teams that got promoted all played well for most of the season. When I say I'm hoping everything clicks, by that I mean we start playing well, without doing that I doubt we will be promoted. Good teams definitely have a knack of winning games when they've not been at their best, but most of the time good teams play well. To get promoted we need to play well for most of the season. 

[VILLAMARV]

11 minutes ago, striker said:

Not sure if comparing Villa to Newcastle last season is as invalid or unhelpful as you state but to debate it we would be running around in circles for the next two or three pages of this thread. Anyway it was more the attitude of Rafa I was getting at in how he got his players to approach playing Championship teams.

Newcastle stamped their authority on games from the off while Villa did exactly the opposite. That may very well be down to the way in which Bruce's teams generally play as opposed to showing teams too much respect but Bruce's Hull did score plenty of goals gaining promotion while Villa are still struggling to do that even in pre season against respectively inferior opposition. So there's something not quite right.

It may well be that Tro's point needing a better DM to allow Lansbury and Hourihane to play further forward may create more goal scoring opportunities but it didn't with Jedinak last season.

So what if you are correct and the signings of Whelan and Elmo make no difference to the way Villa play next season because Bruce simply won't change his style of play? If that is so I do not think Bruce will see Christmas as Villa manager.

I think my point is what if we're playing awful Bruce football but 5 points clear of 3rd by Christmas? What then?

And that imo waiting for Bruce to change his style will drive you mad. His tactics are as clear as the nose on his....oh no hang on. Don't mock the afflicted. Much better we all get on board the 'hoping we win train' with him. Which will feel a bit like Sherwood's reign. Only with tactics, however Wimbledonesque. And defenders.

If he doesn't get results then he'll be gone. But then I thought that's what football was all about.

[AntrimBlack]

19 hours ago, TRO said:

Its interesting how all these seasoned Pros' , who have played for accomplished managers, feel so comfortable signing for Steve Bruce....if he was so bad as some paint, would they come here. nah!

I have heard no adverse from anyone in the industry.....even the Blues fans who will pick on anything are quiet when i talk of Steve Bruce....wished we still had him is the utterings.

It will be interesting to here from the Naysayers, when we tear it up.

Your opinion needs to be tempered by the fact that this is the last big pay day for these guys.

As for your last sentence, if we `tear it up' I will be very happy and will say so.

I resent that some posters seem to think that those of us who think that Bruce will not get us promoted will somehow be happy about that. Nothing could be further from the truth, and it is quite insulting that some would think so.

[vreitti]

1 hour ago, DaveAV1 said:

Conversely not many lost 8 in a row, or what ever number it was. Certainly no one who got promoted. The teams that got promoted all played well for most of the season. When I say I'm hoping everything clicks, by that I mean we start playing well, without doing that I doubt we will be promoted. Good teams definitely have a knack of winning games when they've not been at their best, but most of the time good teams play well. To get promoted we need to play well for most of the season. 

The way things are looking, I don't think we'll lose many games this season, but equally I don't see us winning enough games for promotion, knowing the manager's preferred approach to the game. We certainly won't be playing expansive, ball-dominating football, but I guess that's not the only way of playing 'well'.

Also I don't buy into the notion that all these added, experienced pros will change our fortunes in the final third. I believe we'll see exactly what we saw last year, too long distances between defense and attack, plenty of long balls to Kodjia, hoping for the best, and of course a slightly more solid defensive unit than that last season.

I do hope I'm wrong though, I really do.

Edited July 21, 2017 by vreitti

[TRO]

47 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

Your opinion needs to be tempered by the fact that this is the last big pay day for these guys.

As for your last sentence, if we `tear it up' I will be very happy and will say so.

I resent that some posters seem to think that those of us who think that Bruce will not get us promoted will somehow be happy about that. Nothing could be further from the truth, and it is quite insulting that some would think so.

Fair enough.....but we who believe  in him,have had a few insults aimed at us too....people who live in glass houses and all that.

We will soon see when he has his chosen squad who is right and who is wrong.

I will be disappointed to say I'm wrong for one reason only.....i want to see my team succeed and not keep changing managers.

[AntrimBlack]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

Fair enough.....but we who believe  in him,have had a few insults aimed at us too....people who live in glass houses and all that.

We will soon see when he has his chosen squad who is right and who is wrong.

I will be disappointed to say I'm wrong for one reason only.....i want to see my team succeed and not keep changing managers.

I hope I have not insulted you, because I respect your opinion.

And we both want the same thing - the best for Aston Villa.

It is only opinion, anyway, at this stage, and it will all become clear relatively soon.

[TRO]

40 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said:

I hope I have not insulted you, because I respect your opinion.

And we both want the same thing - the best for Aston Villa.

It is only opinion, anyway, at this stage, and it will all become clear relatively soon.

AB i was not referring to you and to be honest no, no one else has too.it was an overraction.

I admit i have been pretty supportive of Steve Bruce despite me be able to see what all the dissenters see.

The thing is I am not disagreeing with the frustrations, but i see a fix  and i think steve Bruce can do it.it may not be the same fix that is expected by some, but the goal is promotion.

However, I don't do blind faith or swagger through dangerous areas at night singing" boiled beef and carrots" at the top of my voice with a belly full of beer, to coin a phrase.

I would suspect the most partisan of Bruce supporters will wait to see him build his side and then see how they perform. I believe he will get us promotion.

I also think from what i have seen, there is more chance we will do it through results than performances.

personally, i prefer to support him until he fails......as opposed to doubt him until he proves me wrong.

ps i have never been happy to see ANY villa manager fail and i am sure all villa fans feel the same.....but some posts do test that comment, when not a shred of support can be detected.it is almost inconceivable any manager can do everything wrong.

UTV

Edited July 21, 2017 by TRO

[VILLAMARV]

Good 'coz if you're going to take offence at that you'd be missing some VT 'basics' right there mate