AvfcRigo82 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 9 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: No shit, what's the relevance of that? And I'm asking you, is it irrelevant that we were 22nd in the championship when SB took over on the basis that we had a new chairman? The relevance of that is this was the position that we where left in by Di Matteo when Bruce took over. What does that have to do with your original statement of Garde being let off the hook? And what does us being 22nd in the championship have any relevance to Garde being in charge? The point you are looking for I think is that we where already doomed in the premier league under Garde. Steve Bruce was hired after Di Matteo didn't get off to the best of starts, but again under a new ownership with different ambitions and aspirations in a different league. I don't see the point you are trying to make really and not sure where you are hoping to take this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted January 18, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2018 2 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said: No one is being let off the hook. Garde was manager under Randy Lerner in the premier league. Steve Bruce is manager under the new regime of Tony Xia who where already in the championship cause of Lerners mess, when he SB arrived. The comparison is a non mover really. i agree we were in very different situations when bruce and garde came in but i believe there are definite comparisons to be made, certainly with regards to morale both with players and fanbase. christ me and my chums were genuinely fearful of back to back relegations before RDM was sacked...now look at us. yes, money has been spent, but bruce has to deserve credit for at least showing glimpses of a turnaround. it might be a turnaround resembling that of the QE2, but a turnaround nevertheless. would we have gone down from the prem anyway had someone other than garde come in? probably...but there are plenty out there that would have made something of a fight of it, rather than capitulating the way we did. IMO, garde was useless for us and shares the 'shittest manager since MON' award with mcleish for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 Since Mon left for me its quite easy who has been the best its obviously Bruce . However as we have pointed out previously its a different level of opposition . so if you mean just for premier league then as much as it pains me to say it you would have to say lambert as first season was not so bad, second was meh third was diabolical houllier (left) cant really judge mcleish god no lambert see above sherwood had a decent honeymoon then was utter shit garde shafted by lerner so we never know. If I had to rank them be like this Lambert, houllier sherwood, mcleish, and then garde (simply because he won one game even though he was screwed over) i would put di matteo beneath all of them and bruce on top 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Yes. 100% I think your applying the definition too strictly. There's enough 'evidence' in both scenarios to reasonably suggest Ranieri is 'top 2 quality' and Bruce is 'bottom 3 quality'. Just because Mark Hughes finished 9th, 9th, 9th and 13th in his last 4 seasons at Stoke doesn't make it unreasonable to suggest he is more likely to finish in the bottom 10 than top 10 if he took over at another club next season. The results are so close and everyone has their own opinion as to 'why' an event or series of events happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 18, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Michael118 said: I think your applying the definition too strictly. What definition? You're making this all up. 9 minutes ago, Michael118 said: Just because Mark Hughes finished 9th, 9th, 9th and 13th in his last 4 seasons at Stoke doesn't make it unreasonable to suggest he is more likely to finish in the bottom 10 than top 10 if he took over at another club next season. The results are so close and everyone has their own opinion as to 'why' an event or series of events happened. Depends on what club he took over surely? If you're definition of a "bottom 3 manager" or, in this case, a "bottom half manager" is "a manager most likely to finish in the bottom half next season with club x", then that's a whole different discussion I'd say it would be unfair to label Hughes as a "Bottom half manager" just because he finished bottom half last season. But like I said, you're making up your own labels here with your own definitions, so it's up to you! Edited January 18, 2018 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: What definition? A manager can only be 'bottom 3 quality' if they've been relegated more times than they've survived. Quote Depends on what club he took over surely? I'd say it would be unfair to label Hughes as a "Bottom half manager" just because he finished bottom half last season. But like I said, you're making up your own labels here with your own definitions, so it's up to you! Say he was re-hired by Stoke. It might be unfair to label him a 'bottom half manager' based on his history, but it certainly wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest he was more likely to finish in the bottom 10 than top 10. That's a matter of opinion and the stats are not strong enough in either direction to suggest it's an unreasonable one. Edited January 18, 2018 by Michael118 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 18, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2018 Just now, Michael118 said: A manager can only be 'bottom 3 quality' if they've been relegated more times than they've survived. Say he was re-hired by Stoke. It might be unfair to label him a 'bottom half manager' based on his history, but it certainly wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest he was more likely to finish in the bottom 10 than top 10. It's up to an individual's personal interpretation. I personally think to determine a manager's quality by where he is most likely to finish next season with whatever club you're thinking of is a bit mental. Especially when you were originally including people like DOL in the conversation and ranking them higher than Bruce. But anyway, I'll leave you to whatever definition you decide on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 I don't want to chime in on the comparison between him and previous Villa managers, as each situation is unique, and I think Bruce has easily been the most priveleged in my time as a supporter. Not taking away from the job he is doing. I really hope he continues improving this team and puts forward a case to be considered for our return to the Premier League. Not because I particularly like him, I just want us to have success and am open to that being through Bruce. You only need to look at the contrast in success and style between Lambert's Norwich days to his Villa days. Things change and new experiences can bring out different qualities in people. Perhaps Bruce will be out of his depth in the Premier League, or maybe he will find a way to make it work with Villa. So far I think we've been fairly impressive under him, considering where we were at from a performance perspective. The results that will determine automatic promotion weren't going our way in the beginning, but the quality and standards we are playing to are strengthening and I feel like we are a very good shout to be the dominant force of the second half of the season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 This thread is like the no 11 , route , an endless circle of ado . Some of the drivers , I like ,others ,are about as riveting as Sunday Mass . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) David O'Leary Completed Premier League seasons - 6 Finishes - 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 10th, 16th Average position - 5th/6th Top 10 finishes - 5 (83%) Bottom 10 finishes - 1 (16%) Relegations - 0 Other achievements - UEFA Cup & Champions League Qualification, Champions League Semi Finalist Steve Bruce Completed Premier League seasons - 10 Finishes - 13th, 10th, 12th, 18th, 14th, 11th, 13th, 10th, 16th, 18th Average position - 13th Top 10 finishes - 2 (20%) Bottom 10 finishes - 8 (80%) Relegations - 2 Other achievements: Promoted 4 times from the Championship, FA Cup Finalist Edited January 18, 2018 by Michael118 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, AvfcRigo82 said: The relevance of that is this was the position that we where left in by Di Matteo when Bruce took over. What does that have to do with your original statement of Garde being let off the hook? And what does us being 22nd in the championship have any relevance to Garde being in charge? The point you are looking for I think is that we where already doomed in the premier league under Garde. Steve Bruce was hired after Di Matteo didn't get off to the best of starts, but again under a new ownership with different ambitions and aspirations in a different league. I don't see the point you are trying to make really and not sure where you are hoping to take this? I was making no point other than the fact that you were happy to make allowances for Garde under the basis that he was working under difficult conditions but then you cannot seem to bring yourself to make any allowances for SB, simply because we had a new chairman and were in a different league. The fact that Garde was referenced was specifically unimportant, you could have made allowances for any previous manager and I would have asked the same question back to you, so no, it's not a comparison specifically of Garde and Bruce but merely a question as to why you're so prepared to allow consideration of the difficulties Garde faced but will not do the same for SB. What I'm trying to get out of this is why you view SB differently to everyone else and if it's merely because we had a new owner and were in a lower division then I find that narrow minded. It's not as though our problems went away over night and in fact, upon SB joining and the shitshow that was RDM's tenure I'd suggest that things were perhaps even worse than when we went down, at the very least it was equally as difficult, in my opinion. Edited January 18, 2018 by bannedfromHandV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 29 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: This thread is like the no 11 , route , an endless circle of ado . Some of the drivers , I like ,others ,are about as riveting as Sunday Mass . I see you chose not to respond to my question to you a few pages back. You said it's the football under Bruce that you dislike, rather than the man. So when did you last enjoy the football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osmark86 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 I feel like we need to agree on an algorithm for determining "successful management" to give some proper metrics to this debate. Win/loss ratios, games played per division, possession (mean and median), goals made, goals conceded (open play, set pieces etc), monetary support from owner etc... These should all be quite easy to fetch from statistics. Then we have the more subjective metrics such as toxicity levels in terms of how club is being run, quality of football that meets the eye etc. I suggest getting together a panel of experts from VT to rate specific games from 0.00-1.00 in terms of romantic nourishment. Then we'll have a good subset of training data for AI robots rating future games. With this algorithm in place we could once and for all confidently conclude just how shit Bruce is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Michael118 said: David O'Leary Completed Premier League seasons - 6 Finishes - 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 10th, 16th Average position - 5th/6th Top 10 finishes - 5 (83%) Bottom 10 finishes - 1 (16%) Relegations - 0 Other achievements - UEFA Cup & Champions League Qualification, Champions League Semi Finalist Steve Bruce Completed Premier League seasons - 10 Finishes - 13th, 10th, 12th, 18th, 14th, 11th, 13th, 10th, 16th, 18th Average position - 13th Top 10 finishes - 2 (20%) Bottom 10 finishes - 8 (80%) Relegations - 2 Other achievements: Promoted 4 times from the Championship, FA Cup Finalist I'm struggling to see the relevance of these O'Leary statistics to be honest. He was managing in an era when there weren't 6 teams competing on a totally different plane with budgets that make all hope of finishing higher than 7th basically doomed. If O'Leary took us over in the summer, would we finish in the European spots next season? Would we ****. Also, the average of those O'Leary positions is 7th or 8th, not 5th or 6th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexbass08 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 I don't really understand all the Bruce hating unless it's coming from his old bluenose days, he inherits a team that he had no hand in and was chosen by a manager that lasted like 3 months (I know not accurate) so he's not going to be perfect off the bat. Then a complete overhaul of the squad this time last year with that many player changes of course it's going to take time to bed in. We get to last summer and he gets John Terry in, no one saw that coming an amazing piece of buisness. We're now in a pretty decent position, playing well we had very good spell in September/October we've only really had a blip over christmas. If you're talking you're talking about the 'atrractiveness' of the football would you rather play attrative looking football and end up mid table or lower, or playing mediocre looking football and get promoted it's quite rare to have both unless you're a top top team which we just aren't. Wether he's good enough for the PL is different conversation entirely but I'm very confident he will get us there this season. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 2 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said: I see you chose not to respond to my question to you a few pages back. You said it's the football under Bruce that you dislike, rather than the man. So when did you last enjoy the football? Sherwood's first season, at times, produced some decent stuff ,you would have to go back to the days ofBL and BFR ,to when the juices were really flowing . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 4 hours ago, A'Villan said: I don't want to chime in on the comparison between him and previous Villa managers, as each situation is unique, and I think Bruce has easily been the most priveleged in my time as a supporter. Not taking away from the job he is doing. I really hope he continues improving this team and puts forward a case to be considered for our return to the Premier League. Not because I particularly like him, I just want us to have success and am open to that being through Bruce. You only need to look at the contrast in success and style between Lambert's Norwich days to his Villa days. Things change and new experiences can bring out different qualities in people. Perhaps Bruce will be out of his depth in the Premier League, or maybe he will find a way to make it work with Villa. So far I think we've been fairly impressive under him, considering where we were at from a performance perspective. The results that will determine automatic promotion weren't going our way in the beginning, but the quality and standards we are playing to are strengthening and I feel like we are a very good shout to be the dominant force of the second half of the season. Can I ask how old you are and can you ellbaorate with the most privileged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: I'm struggling to see the relevance of these O'Leary statistics to be honest. He was managing in an era when there weren't 6 teams competing on a totally different plane with budgets that make all hope of finishing higher than 7th basically doomed. If O'Leary took us over in the summer, would we finish in the European spots next season? Would we ****. Also, the average of those O'Leary positions is 7th or 8th, not 5th or 6th. Yep, you're right. O'Leary's average position is 7th/8th and Bruce's is 13/14th. I calculated their medians. I rated O'Leary. If the early 2000's version of him was managing us next season in the Premier League I think he'd take us further than Bruce. His stats as well, if you just singled out his time managing us, still compare favourably against Bruce's stats. Edited January 18, 2018 by Michael118 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Good bunch of lads, small squad, black Mac. No thanks lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 21 hours ago, sheepyvillian said: What a ridiculous excuse ,he Hasn't had it relatively hard with us . How do you explain the likes of Dean smith and Lee Johnson , who , regardless of a tight budget , still send their teams out to play in a way that is a pleasure to watch . We are a much more methodical team ,and for some that's fine ,as long as we're winning , but when we lose ,you see it for what it is , dull negative football ,and that is how ,in the main ,his team's tend to play , but I fail to see ,it's because he ,like most managers ,is having it hard . What a ridiculous comparison.....The expectation at our place far out weighs the expectation at theirs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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