Stevo985 Posted January 18, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Michael118 said: I just don't think finishing in the bottom 3 more than 50% of the time is any kind of measure for saying a manager is or isn't bottom 3 quality. For me, relegation says more about a manager than survival. Plenty of fairly poor managers have survived, but very few decent managers get relegated. Bruce has been relegated twice in the last 7 seasons, which is more than any other current manager and equal 2nd most in Premier League history. Most seasons there are a lot of underwhelming managers striving to avoid relegation so he'll always be in with a chance, but if the competition is strong his chances of staying up will be slim. Finishing in the bottom 3 isn't a measure for saying a manager is or isn't bottom 3 quality? I truly don't understand what your definition is so I'll leave you to it. Edited January 18, 2018 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 18, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2018 6 hours ago, srsmithusa said: I will admit that I KINDA rate him. But it's not because of anything he did. It's because of what I THINK he might have done if he had gotten backing. Truthfully a portion of it is a sympathy vote. He truly was hung out to dry. Look at the roster he started with. This is completely fine. I actually kind of agree. I don't think Garde is a terrible manager, or at least I don't think his time here proves he is a terrible manager because of the situation he found himself in. However, when the discussion is around who ASTON VILLA'S best manager has been since MON, then we can only go by how they performed for Villa. If Pep Guardiola became our manager next season and we finished bottom with 5 points then nobody could say "Well he was really good elsewhere so I think he's one of our better managers" In the context of this discussion Garde has to be judged on what he did for Villa. And it was absolute dog shit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 10 hours ago, DCJonah said: I am not a huge bruce fan but to say lambert did better is madness and to mention Garde in the conversation is even worse. I feel for Garde as he was a replacement Captain brought in on an already sinking Vessel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Garde really annoyed the bejesus out of me for some reason. He might be a decent bloke who knows what a decent wine tastes like, but he was a terrible appointment. I'm not saying he's a bad manager, just that he was the wrong type of appointment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 45 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: Garde really annoyed the bejesus out of me for some reason. He might be a decent bloke who knows what a decent wine tastes like, but he was a terrible appointment. I'm not saying he's a bad manager, just that he was the wrong type of appointment. To be fair Ruge I think that the dire straits that the club was in at the time, no matter who we got as manager it would have been the wrong type of appointment tbf as we where already doomed so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 41 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said: To be fair Ruge I think that the dire straits that the club was in at the time, no matter who we got as manager it would have been the wrong type of appointment tbf as we where already doomed so to speak. Isn't it funny how we allow for someone like Garde to be let off the hook entirely due to the 'dire straits' the club was in at the time. And yet, the same doesn't apply to SB who took over the team in 22nd place in the Championship. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Stevo985 said: Finishing in the bottom 3 isn't a measure for saying a manager is or isn't bottom 3 quality? I truly don't understand what your definition is so I'll leave you to it. Would you exclude Ranieri from the tag of 'top 2 manager' if he moved to Swansea for example and won the Premier League again but before achieving it finished 7th, 3rd and 5th? Edited January 18, 2018 by Michael118 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: Isn't it funny how we allow for someone like Garde to be let off the hook entirely due to the 'dire straits' the club was in at the time. And yet, the same doesn't apply to SB who took over the team in 22nd place in the Championship. No one is being let off the hook. Garde was manager under Randy Lerner in the premier league. Steve Bruce is manager under the new regime of Tony Xia who where already in the championship cause of Lerners mess, when he SB arrived. The comparison is a non mover really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Let's just focus on getting promoted for now. Obviously Bruce isn't the right man to take us forward once we're promoted but we can take that discussion for another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 1 hour ago, AvfcRigo82 said: To be fair Ruge I think that the dire straits that the club was in at the time, no matter who we got as manager it would have been the wrong type of appointment tbf as we where already doomed so to speak. Yes it was, but he was as bad as the players. There was just **** all from him, no fight, no nothing. He couldn't wait to get out, and wasn't up for the fight. You're probably right, no one would of saved us, but some would of tried, and bitten a few ears off trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: Yes it was, but he was as bad as the players. There was just **** all from him, no fight, no nothing. He couldn't wait to get out, and wasn't up for the fight. You're probably right, no one would of saved us, but some would of tried, and bitten a few ears off trying. I agree a different manager may have tried in a different approach. For me Garde looked really enthusiastic when he arrived and I think it came when he never really got to sign many players to what he had been promised if you will, I agree with you after this point it all went down hill and his enthusiasm for the job dropped once he realised he was fighting a losing battle that had been going on behind the scenes before his and Sherwoods arrival. The one thing that will stick with me about Garde is his final interview/conference where he just looked broken in what was happening here and I cannot blame him in wanting out. I remember at the time I also felt the same, but lets not take away from that of yes he could tried harder some what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Michael118 said: Would you exclude Ranieri from the tag of 'top 2 manager' if he moved to Swansea for example and won the Premier League again but before achieving it finished 7th, 3rd and 5th? This discussion is so confusing my head has just exploded with trying to follow it. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said: I agree a different manager may have tried in a different approach. For me Garde looked really enthusiastic when he arrived and I think it came when he never really got to sign many players to what he had been promised if you will, I agree with you after this point it all went down hill and his enthusiasm for the job dropped once he realised he was fighting a losing battle that had been going on behind the scenes before his and Sherwoods arrival. The one thing that will stick with me about Garde is his final interview/conference where he just looked broken in what was happening here and I cannot blame him in wanting out. I remember at the time I also felt the same, but lets not take away from that of yes he could tried harder some what. Who knows what he was promised or not, and he probably didn't realise how much of a mess we were in. I just can't accept his wimpy runaway attitude that he had, because we had so many players like that too. As I said, I'm not dismissing him as a manager, but he really wasn't the right choice. Bruce would of been a better choice back then, but even he probably wouldn't of come to us at the time. Look at Coleman at Sunderland. Full of enthusiasm at first, and saying all the right words. Look at him now, and everyone was thinking, why the **** would anyone go to Sunderland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 1 hour ago, AvfcRigo82 said: No one is being let off the hook. Garde was manager under Randy Lerner in the premier league. Steve Bruce is manager under the new regime of Tony Xia who where already in the championship cause of Lerners mess, when he SB arrived. The comparison is a non mover really. So being 22nd in the championship when SB took over is irrelevant then right? The fact we'd won 1 game out of 11 and looked completely imbalanced and disjointed is irrelevant too because we had a new chairman right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: So being 22nd in the championship when SB took over is irrelevant then right? The fact we'd won 1 game out of 11 and looked completely imbalanced and disjointed is irrelevant too because we had a new chairman right? I'd just give up mate, it's not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 1 minute ago, lexicon said: I'd just give up mate, it's not worth it. If I haven't given up by now it's unlikely to ever happen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 18, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Michael118 said: Would you exclude Ranieri from the tag of 'top 2 manager' if he moved to Swansea for example and won the Premier League again but before achieving it finished 7th, 3rd and 5th? Yes. 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 20 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: So being 22nd in the championship when SB took over is irrelevant then right? Your words, not mine. 21 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: The fact we'd won 1 game out of 11 and looked completely imbalanced and disjointed is irrelevant too because we had a new chairman right? Di Matteo was in between Garde and SB don't forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 27 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said: Your words, not mine. Di Matteo was in between Garde and SB don't forget. No shit, what's the relevance of that? And I'm asking you, is it irrelevant that we were 22nd in the championship when SB took over on the basis that we had a new chairman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 8 hours ago, villan_007 said: hmmm depends. They literally stumbled into the prem. In 3 play off games they scored one goal and went up/through from two penalty shoot outs. Not exactly total football is it. Play some decent stuff occasionally but hit and miss for me. Given the choice of Wagner or Bruce ? I'll have the former , please . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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