Steve Bruce

[Villan_of_oz]

13 hours ago, Lerner's Driver said:

My abiding memory of earlier this season, is that some got a little carried away with their claims of absolute certainty regarding the possible outcome, whilst others preferred to retain an open mind in the knowledge that things can and do change quite quickly in football regardless of the immediate circumstances. 

My issue was not with the fact Bruce was being criticised because he deserved some of it, but rather the manner, which was unhelpfully intransigent and somewhat superior. The feeling of an agenda made this place unpleasant to visit at times. Of course that can all be forgotten now we look decent.

Fair call. I think the agenda from the people who criticised those of us that doubted Bruce, was just as unpleasant and unhelpful.

Our good form has killed two birds with one stone. 

Thankfully!

UTV 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Villan_of_oz

[TRO]

32 minutes ago, Mantis said:

Where is the evidence for this? The way we approached games was totally different.

The evidence is in the way the players are playing.....full of confidence.

I guess you could say, what comes first the chicken or the egg......You can approach a game differently if factors you need are coming good.....its a paradox.

The manager has to try and win a football match.....If he feels individual players are not doing it for him to his liking and a replacement is no better, he has to set up not to lose or play a game of containment, until he can get the things to his liking right.

( Mourinho is having a similar problem right now)

I think many factors have aligned ( and in some cases synergised) to get us playing like we are and the manager is capitalising in his approach.

as an example.....Jack was injured in a fairly lengthy spell, he was also identified before his injury of not being strong enough in contact( always going to ground).....back from injury they have worked on that and Jack is looking far stronger on the ball, that has raised his confidence and swagger and that has also had a knock on effect to the team.

• Directly, Jack is having a massive influence on the team and raising the game of those around him
• Indirectly that was identified by Steve Bruce who got Ollie Stevenson primed to get Jack in to that condition.

That is just one example....there are many.

I think we need to be concise as to what we are praising or criticising the manager for......He is a teller, not a doer in respect of playing.

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by TRO

[srsmithusa]

11 hours ago, Eastie said:

Bruce will be given the chance in the premier league - whether he stays long will be down to results .

I feel confident you are right on the second part of that.  I'm not as confident about the first part.  It depends on what the three team plan really meant and how closely they stick to whatever was "specific" in that plan.   It's going to be fun finding out.

[srsmithusa]

44 minutes ago, TRO said:

 

Results have a knack of turning every fans head.....me too who has defended SB for months ,thought too, that it might need a change during December......I showed my moment of sanity.

 

 

fixed for you.  

[srsmithusa]

14 hours ago, TRO said:

Results have a knack of turning every fans head.....me too who has defended SB for months ,thought too, that it might need a change during December......I showed my weakness.

I think the danger is we ( the fans) give managers too much credit for wins and too much criticism for defeats......They set the scene, they create the backdrop, they guide and direct the coaches and players.....on a match day its the players that do it.......but sadly they ( the managers) are the first we turn to, when we want to throw our teddies out of the pram.....We see the players work, we don't necessarily see the managers work.

• can you credit( directly) Steve Bruce for Hourihanes goal?
• can you criticise ( directly)Steve Bruce for JT getting his legs in a tangle and Gallagher coming close to scoring.

NO

He picks the team i.e setup.... he picks the subs, he dictates tactics.......but he don't play for them.

Personally, I am still uncomfortable with the notion that when we have a winning run as opposed to a losing run the manager is doing anything majorly different......I don't buy that. In fact the work he does behind the scenes during the losing run could be argued is the work that creates the winning run.....sounds paradoxical, but sometimes it is.....Development takes time and the bigger the development job, the longer it can take.

We could trip up and lose a couple ( god forbid) but it doesn't take away the good work in the 7 on the bounce.

We as fans need to learn to be a bit more resilient too......Our 8 years of demise has left us a bit damaged and brittle always expecting the worst, not criticising us for that, just making an observation. These last 7 games has transformed us back in to believers....The ground was rocking on Sunday and that confidence gets to the players just as much or more than Steve Bruce can Instill.

We need to find that again, when we are in  bit of trouble in a game.....thats what will get us over the line and the opposition drop off.

 

Seriously, lot's to digest in that.  If I had time and a drink, I would take it line by line.

Of course i can't credit Bruce for Hourihane's goal.  But I can credit him for pushing Hourihane forward which is something for FAR TOO  LONG (IMHO) he would not do.  The proof was in the pudding.  Hourihane played deep holding role and Bruce kept playing him there.

Of course I can't blame Bruce for Terry slipping.  But I can blame him for setting a defensive center 3 (terry, chester, Jedi) playing high enough up the pitch that speed can burn them when there is no speed in those three.  Agreed that many times it has not hurt us.  But it's still a risk Bruce took.  (I wouldn't even necessarily disagree with that decision  given the Terry's wily experience, but you raised that particular example, so I go with that particular situation to say there is a counter view.)

He picked the team, setup, subs, and tactics since he came.  It took him far too long (IMHO of course) to get them right and/or effective.  I'm delighted he has, but don't agree with a glossing over of everything that's gone before.  There were plenty decisions he made that rank amateurs could see were mistakes.  He did not persist in them to the point that our season wasn't salvageable, clearly, and that's very good.  But he still made them.  IMO I still think the first mistake he made was giving free pass second chances to players that had spit on the club (Gabby and Richards most notably).  None of those players have repaid his faith by becoming valuable.  (Gaby's derby performance aside.... it was good for the club, but didn't change our finish)  But giving them a chance communicated that you can be a disrespectful prat toward the club without penalty.  I thought at the time, it was a poor decision he made.  I still do.  I think the team would have turned around more quickly with setting an example that said "if you can't behave like a professional footballer you don't belong here."  I mention that one, not because it's the worst, or only.... but simply because it was the first one obvious to me.  (The second was starting last January with only Gaby)  Which by the way messaged "you can disrespect the club and be OK.  But if you disrespect me with a gate excuse, you're out."

I think there has been a change in confidence for some players (Hogan and Grealish, especially) since January and Agnew arrived.  Did Bruce cause that from hard work with them for the previous months?  Beats me.  But starting about January we finally started looking like a team.  I'm delighted we did.

I have not criticized him much here for a while, largely because it's a results business and he is now delivering the goods.  I'm not on an anti-Bruce rant or mood.  I just feel like the "he was doing fine all along and we should have never doubted him" tone and explicit content on here is OTT.   (You are not a big culprit in this.... I generally find you more reasonable, even when we disagree, so I find myself more inclined to engage in conversation.)

We are winning.  Bruce has been the man in charge to bring that about.  Ton's of credit to him.  I have rose colored glasses for the near future.  But not about the past 18 months overall.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

Seriously, lot's to digest in that.  If I had time and a drink, I would take it line by line.

Of course i can't credit Bruce for Hourihane's goal.  But I can credit him for pushing Hourihane forward which is something for FAR TOO  LONG (IMHO) he would not do.  The proof was in the pudding.  Hourihane played deep holding role and Bruce kept playing him there.

Of course I can't blame Bruce for Terry slipping.  But I can blame him for setting a defensive center 3 (terry, chester, Jedi) playing high enough up the pitch that speed can burn them when there is no speed in those three.  Agreed that many times it has not hurt us.  But it's still a risk Bruce took.  (I wouldn't even necessarily disagree with that decision  given the Terry's wily experience, but you raised that particular example, so I go with that particular situation to say there is a counter view.)

He picked the team, setup, subs, and tactics since he came.  It took him far too long (IMHO of course) to get them right and/or effective.  I'm delighted he has, but don't agree with a glossing over of everything that's gone before.  There were plenty decisions he made that rank amateurs could see were mistakes.  He did not persist in them to the point that our season wasn't salvageable, clearly, and that's very good.  But he still made them.  IMO I still think the first mistake he made was giving free pass second chances to players that had spit on the club (Gabby and Richards most notably).  None of those players have repaid his faith by becoming valuable.  (Gaby's derby performance aside.... it was good for the club, but didn't change our finish)  But giving them a chance communicated that you can be a disrespectful prat toward the club without penalty.  I thought at the time, it was a poor decision he made.  I still do.  I think the team would have turned around more quickly with setting an example that said "if you can't behave like a professional footballer you don't belong here."  I mention that one, not because it's the worst, or only.... but simply because it was the first one obvious to me.  (The second was starting last January with only Gaby)  Which by the way messaged "you can disrespect the club and be OK.  But if you disrespect me with a gate excuse, you're out."

I think there has been a change in confidence for some players (Hogan and Grealish, especially) since January and Agnew arrived.  Did Bruce cause that from hard work with them for the previous months?  Beats me.  But starting about January we finally started looking like a team.  I'm delighted we did.

I have not criticized him much here for a while, largely because it's a results business and he is now delivering the goods.  I'm not on an anti-Bruce rant or mood.  I just feel like the "he was doing fine all along and we should have never doubted him" tone and explicit content on here is OTT.   (You are not a big culprit in this.... I generally find you more reasonable, even when we disagree, so I find myself more inclined to engage in conversation.)

We are winning.  Bruce has been the man in charge to bring that about.  Ton's of credit to him.  I have rose colored glasses for the near future.  But not about the past 18 months overall.

Smithy, sorry in advance for the colloquial term.....I am never going to change your view and don't wish to try.

I have never alluded to suggest he or any other manager is beyond mistakes.....sometimes they try things in a trial and error mode.....we all do.....I prefer to focus on the solutions and the positives like getting Jack back to what we know he can do.

I do not see the first 18 months like you do.....for my sins I see a plane crash that needed months and months to fix ( not to digress I think the same at Sunderland, no doubt some of them want him out already)

you are right in the sense of moving forward and looking forward and as some things get fixed a knock on effect takes over.

Its not a question of who was right and who was wrong.....we all have our views.

For the sake of the club and the fans.....I hope Steve keeps this renaissance running and wins us promotion, however he does it.......and we all take it from there.

UTV

Edited February 13, 2018 by TRO

[Heretic]

24 minutes ago, TRO said:

I do not see the first 18 months like you do.....for my sins I see a plane crash that needed months and months to fix ( not to digress I think the same at Sunderland, no doubt don't some of them want him out already)

I think RDM did say it was a two season job, minimum.

But without being mean (trying not to be), SB is getting the second best squad in the division into second place. That's not an amazing achievement. I believe that's simply meeting expectations.

Man City will win the league. Given their resources, it must be expected.

None of this is to say that I'm unhappy. I believe that we've moved from expecting second due to resources to now legitimately expecting second because the results and play are showing we deserve this position. It's great.

But with our resources, the size of the club, the great support, we should expect and demand to be here and SB should know (and I'm sure does) that he's just doing the job.

Anything less surely invites criticism. So when we were 9th-ish around Christmas, a poor display against Brentford at some point (can't remember), the criticism of SB was absolutely correct.

There's a few mea culpas in this thread, but I feel no guilt making the criticisms.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Heretic said:

I think RDM did say it was a two season job, minimum.

But without being mean (trying not to be), SB is getting the second best squad in the division into second place. That's not an amazing achievement. I believe that's simply meeting expectations.

Man City will win the league. Given their resources, it must be expected.

None of this is to say that I'm unhappy. I believe that we've moved from expecting second due to resources to now legitimately expecting second because the results and play are showing we deserve this position. It's great.

But with our resources, the size of the club, the great support, we should expect and demand to be here and SB should know (and I'm sure does) that he's just doing the job.

Anything less surely invites criticism. So when we were 9th-ish around Christmas, a poor display against Brentford at some point (can't remember), the criticism of SB was absolutely correct.

There's a few mea culpas in this thread, but I feel no guilt making the criticisms.

I think RDM was right, but they say he didn't get sacked for results alone.

I think your comments are a bit  contradictory in terms of the squad.....the second best squad, is the one he assembled from partly loan players and free's, he bought 1 expensive player.....it wasn't handed to him....he used his nous, its part of his credit, not the other way around.

It has taken 3 windows, so its been WIP most of the time he's been here, Steve Agnew has only just arrived and Jack is only just showing us the player we thought we had.

In the main, we are arguing about his early tenure, when the building blocks were only just going in, not progressed like now.

I think you are being mean.

In terms of the BURDEN of expectation, i think its the hardest job in the league.

Edited February 13, 2018 by TRO

[AJ]

When I wanted Bruce out, it wasn't that I thought Bruce was a poor manager, I just thought he wasn't the manager for us.

When he was manager of Sunderland, Hull, and the unmentionable rabble, he was working with limited resources and lowered expectations, but still managed to over achieve. That is the quality of a good manager. When he came to us, he said he dreamed of managing a big club like us one day, and now that time was upon him. He started very well, managing to get us away from the S bend end of the table with no midfield, but it all seemed to go to pot after January. At the end of the season, I wanted Bruce to go, as I was certain he wasn't the man to take us forward.

Fast forward to now, and we are seeing the reaped benefits of time, patience, and backing and support from the board and Dr Tone. Steve now has the staff and players he needs. It hasn't gone totally smoothly, but it is taking shape. It was like walking into the Sistine Chapel in 1509, telling Michelangelo it looks like shit, then coming back in 1513 and proclaiming it as a masterpiece.

Bruce, when taking the Villa job, it was a step up with the resources available, but with the extra pressure of expectations that came with such a job. Either the job overwhelms him, consumes him then spits him out, or, he can adapt and adjust, transfer what has made him successful at smaller clubs, and apply it to Villa. The club hierarchy has done what they can to ensure that the latter happens, and we are now reaping the benefits of it. With the continued support he gets on and off the pitch, he can only go forward.

Regardless of what happens at the end of this season, is Steve Bruce the man to take us forward?

With a mouthful of humble pie, it is a yes from me.

[Skruff]

I've questioned a lot of his decision. I feel like a few of the good changes he has made, has been by a forced hand.
At times it felt he as if he was fumbling in the dark. 
However, for the first time in years i feel confident in the team going into a match.
I imagine the players are the same, and that a winning mentality now inhabits within the team.
The players has stopped hiding. Good preformance, bad preformance, they take the game on.
They do not falter. They are winners. And thats all Bruces credit.
 

 

 

 

 

[TRO]

10 minutes ago, AJ said:

When I wanted Bruce out, it wasn't that I thought Bruce was a poor manager, I just thought he wasn't the manager for us.

When he was manager of Sunderland, Hull, and the unmentionable rabble, he was working with limited resources and lowered expectations, but still managed to over achieve. That is the quality of a good manager. When he came to us, he said he dreamed of managing a big club like us one day, and now that time was upon him. He started very well, managing to get us away from the S bend end of the table with no midfield, but it all seemed to go to pot after January. At the end of the season, I wanted Bruce to go, as I was certain he wasn't the man to take us forward.

Fast forward to now, and we are seeing the reaped benefits of time, patience, and backing and support from the board and Dr Tone. Steve now has the staff and players he needs. It hasn't gone totally smoothly, but it is taking shape. It was like walking into the Sistine Chapel in 1509, telling Michelangelo it looks like shit, then coming back in 1513 and proclaiming it as a masterpiece.

Bruce, when taking the Villa job, it was a step up with the resources available, but with the extra pressure of expectations that came with such a job. Either the job overwhelms him, consumes him then spits him out, or, he can adapt and adjust, transfer what has made him successful at smaller clubs, and apply it to Villa. The club hierarchy has done what they can to ensure that the latter happens, and we are now reaping the benefits of it. With the continued support he gets on and off the pitch, he can only go forward.

Regardless of what happens at the end of this season, is Steve Bruce the man to take us forward?

With a mouthful of humble pie, it is a yes from me.

AJ.....Brilliant rendition.....wished i could have expressed my sentiments as well as you just have.

Edited February 13, 2018 by TRO

[DCJonah]

There were clear reasons to be concerned and a lot of it was justified. Now there are clear reasons to be confident and the praise and manager of the month awards are fully justified. 

 

[DevonIsAPlaceOnEarth]

2 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

There were clear reasons to be concerned and a lot of it was justified. Now there are clear reasons to be confident and the praise and manager of the month awards are fully justified. 

 

100%, I think we as fans overanalyse recent history sometimes, especially when things are going great now. As the adopted club song says ‘Don’t Look Back In Anger”.

[sheepyvillian]

4 hours ago, Villan_of_oz said:

Fair call. I think the agenda from the people who criticised those of us that doubted Bruce, was just as unpleasant and unhelpful.

Our good form has killed two birds with stone. 

Thankfully!

UTV 

Diplomatically put, my good man.

[Rob182]

14 hours ago, Lerner's Driver said:

My abiding memory of earlier this season, is that some got a little carried away with their claims of absolute certainty regarding the possible outcome, whilst others preferred to retain an open mind in the knowledge that things can and do change quite quickly in football regardless of the immediate circumstances. 

My issue was not with the fact Bruce was being criticised because he deserved some of it, but rather the manner, which was unhelpfully intransigent and somewhat superior. The feeling of an agenda made this place unpleasant to visit at times. Of course that can all be forgotten now we look decent.

This sums it up perfectly for me LD.

 

We were ‘average’ for the first half of the season, I would say. With the money & resources at the club, we should have been much better than ‘average’. However, I never felt that we were dreadful, and we always seemed to be two games away from being in a good position. Some posters seemed to laugh at that suggestion, arguing that we would never win two games in a row under Bruce.

 

A mate at work actually said to me a few days ago “Are you Bruce In now then?”, and I replied that I’d never been Bruce Out, but close to it a few times. I looked back through all my tweets from this season and last, and was relieved to see that I’ve never been fully Bruce Out. There have been two times under his management where I’ve said “he has to get [so many] wins in the next [so many] games”, and credit to him, he’s got them. Once was last January/February and the second time was at the end of December ‘17.

 

The fact that this league is so competetive, and can be really tight, possibly skews people’s perceptions of how well or poorly we’re doing.

[Vive_La_Villa]

Bruce is now doing a good job but things can change quickly in football. 

Who would have saw Leeds collapse last season. I would like to believe we have a lot more about us for that to happen though.

[TheStagMan]

It's good to see that we are now where we are. I have been very critical of Bruce's to date due to the performances put in on the pitch and the position of Villa in the league. To date, both have been poor and have not met expectations. There is nothing needed to justify that stance and nothing to criticise about it. No one can argue that we have been good enough to date, and December was shambolic. 

However, for whatever reason - be it Bruce suddenly having an epiphany in how he sets up the team, be it Agnew coming in, be it the players suddenly waking up, be it key players coming back, or be it the stars finally aligning and all the work in the background that we do not know about coming up trumps, we now look like a team, are putting in the performances and achieving results, and achieving them in style. It seems like a switch has been flicked and Aston Villa is now in the "on" position. 

Does the current form mean that people were wrong to call for his head? No

Does the current form guarantee promotion? Only if it continues, and it hopefully will.

Am I enjoying this turn around? Hell yes!

Bruce has turned us around. As others have said, if he is responsible for the bad, he is responsible for the good as well, and I take my hat off to him for that. It has been a difficult time for him, and his reaction to the first goal against the scum speaks volumes. 

Would I want him as the manager for next season? I don't know. Let's get promoted first - there is still a long way to go (but it is now in our hands). For me it depends how the rest of the season goes - but the key thing is that is it no longer a definite "No" from me. He is winning me round. 

Well played Steve, Well played. 

[Dave J]

28 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

It's good to see that we are now where we are. I have been very critical of Bruce's to date due to the performances put in on the pitch and the position of Villa in the league. To date, both have been poor and have not met expectations. There is nothing needed to justify that stance and nothing to criticise about it. No one can argue that we have been good enough to date, and December was shambolic. 

However, for whatever reason - be it Bruce suddenly having an epiphany in how he sets up the team, be it Agnew coming in, be it the players suddenly waking up, be it key players coming back, or be it the stars finally aligning and all the work in the background that we do not know about coming up trumps, we now look like a team, are putting in the performances and achieving results, and achieving them in style. It seems like a switch has been flicked and Aston Villa is now in the "on" position. 

Does the current form mean that people were wrong to call for his head? No

Does the current form guarantee promotion? Only if it continues, and it hopefully will.

Am I enjoying this turn around? Hell yes!

Bruce has turned us around. As others have said, if he is responsible for the bad, he is responsible for the good as well, and I take my hat off to him for that. It has been a difficult time for him, and his reaction to the first goal against the scum speaks volumes. 

Would I want him as the manager for next season? I don't know. Let's get promoted first - there is still a long way to go (but it is now in our hands). For me it depends how the rest of the season goes - but the key thing is that is it no longer a definite "No" from me. He is winning me round. 

Well played Steve, Well played. 

Absolutely this - in my view the criticism was justified and does not need defending in any way.

i repeat myself sorry - but we have been poor under SB longer than we have been winning games regularly - I include performances in this as well as results 

and the question is still very real - are we just in a good run of form or are we now the real deal ? Time only will tell.

As for next season I am extremely concerned that SB might be in charge of a return to the premier league- but equally I think it's unfair to sack a manager who has guided us to promotion- this represents a conundrum for me personally however I am quite sure that the club will stick with SB if we are promoted 

[tomav84]

10 hours ago, AJ said:

Regardless of what happens at the end of this season, is Steve Bruce the man to take us forward?

interesting point...i can see you being in the minority if we don't go up. for me it would depend on the circumstances, if we just drop to playoffs, and lose playoff final unluckily i would say keep him. a total capitulation where we don't make playoffs would be somewhat unforgivable however

[sne]

Think I rather keep him for another season in the Championship than for a season in the PL next year.

Bit strange maybe since if we fail to get promoted he deserves the sack, and if we are promoted he kinda deserves to stay...

Horses for courses and so on I guess.