Vive_La_Villa Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 6 hours ago, TRO said: I think he walked out on Hull......and O'Neill did on us.....i think Warnock did on Crystal Palace too. Tbf we’ll probably never know. It’s normally just officially reported as manager has left club. Then the rest is spectaculation. As for MON. He managed to get compensation larger than any payoff would have been! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: Cardiffs wage bill was £29m last year - for comparison Fulham's was £37m - Wolves was £28m. Ours was £61m. It's no wonder we're in trouble. Unless there's a takeover, I think a playoff tilt is an unrealistic expectation - in fact, with a takeover I think it's a pretty unrealistic expectation. FFP means you can't make a quick bounce recovery. Scott out of interest mate where have you got these figures from as I am not aware of clubs releasing accounts for last season yet. Edited July 5, 2018 by markavfc40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Been out of the loop for a week or two, and haven't caught up with what's transpired in the news. One quality that Bruce strikes me as having is motivation and in my uninformed opinion I could see him staying, even with the challenge ahead. He walked out on Hull due to a lack of ambition in the transfer window, but he was afforded every chance of success here. I've no clue as to what's really happening but I don't see him walking away due to the squad suffering temporary depletion, afterall, he's partially responsible for that and without doubt would have had an awareness of what's to come, to some degree at least. Say what you want about his football, but he doesn't strike me as a man lacking character or resilience. I mean you have to commend him for his efforts during a difficult time with his Mother. I don't see why he can't take the bull by the horns and rise up to face the challenge that is Aston Villa. Obviously it's a lot more complicated than tit for tat but he was afforded a season with his own squad, and by no means a poor one in his first season either. I imagine he'll have a fair bit of autonomy to run things as he sees best from a footballing perspective. If this is the opportunity of a lifetime he talks about then I don't see why he wouldn't want to show his worth and merit by giving it an honest crack while the chips are down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, A'Villan said: I don't see why he can't take the bull by the horns and rise up to face the challenge that is Aston Villa. Me neither - not that it's fashionable to say so. Bruce will sit tight till ownership is sorted and will prepare us for the season ahead as is his job. I'm glad he's doing that as it'll give us a firm footing for a very challenging season. Cue sacking in 3,2,1... Edited July 5, 2018 by Jareth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 12 hours ago, briny_ear said: That wasn’t what my post was about - it was about the disingenuity of someone pretending that the individuals who constantly criticise Bruce would have a pause at the start of a new season. If he’s around, they won’t. I will be amazed however if he doesn't resign this week or early next. The club doesn’t have much to offer a manager by way of structure, planning or resources at the moment. Rubbish. A number of us who criticized Bruce, rightly stopped criticizing when he was getting it right, in fact you will see that some actually praised him when he did. Unfortunately he was not able to continue to do so, at which point the criticism came back. EDITED - NV For what it is worth, I think getting rid of Bruce now is less of a concern than sorting out the ownership, management structure and finances of the club. I don't expect us to achieve very much at all this coming season, and therefore Bruce is the ideal candidate to achieve just that. What I would like to see is someone else to come in who can start to build something, a style of play, develop our youth (because he has a plan for them, not because he has to play them) and stabilise the club on the football side. unfortunately that is now secondary to at least being able to put out a team and play a game of football. To an extent I am willing/expecting to sacrifice a season of football to get the club itself sorted out. However that said, if Bruce walked, I would not be too upset, concerned maybe (given everything else that is going on) but not upset. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 10 hours ago, weedman said: This is a terrible way of thinking, simply picking a position and sticking to it relentlessly regardless of what is happening is wrong, even if it turns out to be right in the end, making an informed desision based on what is happening is the right way to go, even if you turn out to be wrong in the end Claiming that we had "no chance of being promoted with this dinosaur in charge" 3 games into the season was wrong, even though we didn't end up getting promoted, whereas stating "its not pretty but we're doing well, comfortably in the top 6 and have a good chance of getting promoted" was correct, even though we ultimately fell short Ever since I can remember people are so desperate to not be "fickle" and to be proved "right" that they make definitive statements ridiculously early, have absolutely no intention of ever changing their mind regardless of any circumstances then use illogical confirmation bias to try and drum that standpoint home for as long as possible before declaring themselves victorious over all the "idiots" who kept an open mind. As an example I'd bet that if there was a genuine Man City fan who was dead against Pep Guardiola before he joined them, that person will still be dead against him now, despite his huge success there, and why? Because changing your mind is weak, fickle and would mean you have to admit being wrong to start with I think you will find that it was based on mostly the football that was served up, not a particular dislike of Bruce. When results and football improved the criticisms died off. However picking a position and sticking to it if things don't change is correct - what didn't change was the lack of a long-term plan, a strategy for the long term building of a team etc - this was what a lot of criticism was about. 3 games into the season we were terrible, showed no progress from the previous season and looked like we did not have a clue. We were supposed to have had the mystical transfer window and a pre-season and come out all guns blazing. We were awful. Concerns being expressed at the time were absolutely justified then, and ultimately at the end of the season. I have to add: Saying sticking to a position is wrong, even if it turns out to be right is one of the most baffling statements I have read on here, and there is some real competition for that accolade, so well done. As for your last two paragraphs.... they make no sense at all, and certainly do not reflect what went on in here, unless you are referring to the Bruce supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAnty Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Is he gone yet? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 10 hours ago, DCJonah said: Agree with a lot of this. My opinion changed massively over the course of the season. I just don't think you can mock people who were convinced, stood by their opinion and ultimately were proved right. You claim its illogical and desperate not to look fickle but that's an incredibly dismissive view and is as pathetic as the one you describe in your post. Lots of people gave very logical and reasoned arguments as to why they felt bruce would fail and why their opinion didn't change even when results improved. You choosing to belittle and dismiss them doesn't make it so. Oh there have been a lot of very reasonable and thought out posts on both sides of the Bruce argument, for sure, and the way I wrote that definitely has come across as a bit dismissive of those opinions which I didn't mean to, however I stand by the point that anyone who said that we had "no chance of being promoted" at the start of last season were wrong regardless of what ultimately happened, because we clearly did have a good chance of being promoted. We were the 4th best performing team in the league last year and narrowly lost the playoff final, which of course ultimately is not good enough, but it is certainly better than "Bruce is a dinosaur", "we're never getting promoted" posts etc I hate the labelling of people on here as either Bruce in or Bruce out, you say anything positive about him and your accused by some of being blind and burying your head in the sand, anything negative and some will accuse you of not being a true fan etc. Its ridiculous. Bruce has good qualities and bad ones, he's a championship manager. He is clearly a decent manager for this level, more defensive than is currently in fashion with the trend towards all out attack and possession based football (which I find really boring aside from Pep teams, as they add the flair as well, watching Spain play for example is mind numbingly boring), he's not going to suddenly become a world class manager, he's not suddenly going to send teams out gung ho because he favours defensive solidarity (as do a lot of very successful teams, Man Utd, for one). At the end of the season I wanted him gone, get a new guy in and see where it takes us, but with all the uncertainty going on in my opinion it would be foolish to get rid of him now, with a weaker team defensive solidarity is more likely the best way to go - see Cardiff. I accept that many people will have different opinions to me, and there are good arguments for and against, but I for one won't be making and definitive statements about what will or won't happen either way because none of us know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, TheStagMan said: I think you will find that it was based on mostly the football that was served up, not a particular dislike of Bruce. When results and football improved the criticisms died off. However picking a position and sticking to it if things don't change is correct - what didn't change was the lack of a long-term plan, a strategy for the long term building of a team etc - this was what a lot of criticism was about. 3 games into the season we were terrible, showed no progress from the previous season and looked like we did not have a clue. We were supposed to have had the mystical transfer window and a pre-season and come out all guns blazing. We were awful. Concerns being expressed at the time were absolutely justified then, and ultimately at the end of the season. I have to add: Saying sticking to a position is wrong, even if it turns out to be right is one of the most baffling statements I have read on here, and there is some real competition for that accolade, so well done. As for your last two paragraphs.... they make no sense at all, and certainly do not reflect what went on in here, unless you are referring to the Bruce supporters. To say nothing changed from when he took over to the end of last season is proving my point, a lot changed, the football got better, the results got better, our league position got better etc. I have no problem with criticism, especially as I agree, our start to the season was poor and I was very skeptical of our chances at the time, but things DID improve, there were a lot of positives last season. Choosing to still want Bruce out regardless of any progress is one thing (for whatever reason, there are plenty of valid ones both ways), choosing to completely ignore anything positive because you want Bruce out is totally different and completely wrong regardless of what ends up happening, because noone knows what will actually happen until it happens. It's the same the other way around as well, choosing to ignore anything negative about Bruce because you want him in is also wrong. I feel this is the main thing that causes the never ending circular argument on here I didn't say sticking to a position is wrong, I said blindly sticking to a position and ignoring anything that is currently happening is wrong, regardless of the ultimate outcome. Having an opinion is one thing, it's the really early definitive statements that I have a problem with (the "we will never get promoted" type ones), followed by ignoring anything that's happening to back that statement up, because regardless of what happens, unless you have a time machine and already know what will happen you simply don't know that. Edit (trying to find a way of explaining my point) - people saying "it's coming home" is clearly a bit of fun, some people really believe England will win the the world cup and some people don't, and both views are equally valid, however the people who have gone out and got tattoos with "England 2018 World Cup winners" are wrong, if England happen to win they will have been really lucky, but that doesn't mean getting the tattoo in the first place was right. Does that make sense? Edited July 5, 2018 by weedman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 @weedman Yes you are making sense, although the England tattoo analogy possibly didn't help illustrate your point, not for me anyway. I think I see where both sides are coming from. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree, you are not muddling your words, it's just that you see Bruce in a different light to others. Both sides of the argument in this thread can be quite headstrong in their approach, which I think is a good thing more often than not, but it doesn't make for an easy time convincing someone who disagrees with you, that you know what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted July 5, 2018 Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2018 2 hours ago, markavfc40 said: Scott out of interest mate where have you got these figures from as I am not aware of clubs releasing accounts for last season yet. From the Swiss ramble (usually pretty good). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted July 5, 2018 Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 hour ago, A'Villan said: I've no clue as to what's really happening but I don't see him walking away due to the squad suffering temporary depletion, I think this is the key here - the meaning of temporary - it might be temporary in a "sorted by the end of the summer" way, it might be temporary in a "sorted next summer" way, it might be temporary in a "for the foreseeable future" kind of way. For me, it most likely the latter - we're skint and we're likely to be skint for some time - we won't see the sort of spending that we saw when Dr Xia arrived for at least three more seasons, even if we're taken over - FFP says so - and the squad we have now is smaller and weaker than the one we had when Dr Xia arrived. Bruce is 57, for his career and CV he'll want to be competing at the top end of the Championship and trying to find himself another year in the Premier League - if we're going to be three or four years before we're able to compete for a play off spot (and there's every indication that might be the case) then I think it becomes difficult to make a case for him to stay. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 44 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I think this is the key here - the meaning of temporary - it might be temporary in a "sorted by the end of the summer" way, it might be temporary in a "sorted next summer" way, it might be temporary in a "for the foreseeable future" kind of way. For me, it most likely the latter - we're skint and we're likely to be skint for some time - we won't see the sort of spending that we saw when Dr Xia arrived for at least three more seasons, even if we're taken over - FFP says so - and the squad we have now is smaller and weaker than the one we had when Dr Xia arrived. Bruce is 57, for his career and CV he'll want to be competing at the top end of the Championship and trying to find himself another year in the Premier League - if we're going to be three or four years before we're able to compete for a play off spot (and there's every indication that might be the case) then I think it becomes difficult to make a case for him to stay. I'm inclined to trust your judgement of the situation a bit more than my own. I have a tendency toward optimism, and in this case, the hopes that Bruce will pull his socks up and not only get to work, but prove my doubts about his abilities wrong. We currently have a squad whereby even if halved, we would retain some of the divisions elite performers in recent years. So unless my understanding of our situation is flawed, which it probably is, I don''t see why any manager who's at our club can't at least have the faith in their ability as a coach to have this team challenging the top half. I don't have the best understanding of the division, last season was my first watching it, Wolves and Fulham were the only teams to impress me, but it seems achievable to me. Sure, we've criminally overpaid the people we've brought in, and as a consequence they are redundant as potential financial assets, they are a burden in that regard, however many are still in their prime and I don't see why Bruce or any coach should turn their nose up at the chance to build something from what we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 We’re on page 1873, surely he’s just hanging on for the next page to walk away and cement his place in history? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 12 hours ago, weedman said: To say nothing changed from when he took over to the end of last season is proving my point, a lot changed, the football got better, the results got better, our league position got better etc. I have no problem with criticism, especially as I agree, our start to the season was poor and I was very skeptical of our chances at the time, but things DID improve, there were a lot of positives last season. Choosing to still want Bruce out regardless of any progress is one thing (for whatever reason, there are plenty of valid ones both ways), choosing to completely ignore anything positive because you want Bruce out is totally different and completely wrong regardless of what ends up happening, because noone knows what will actually happen until it happens. It's the same the other way around as well, choosing to ignore anything negative about Bruce because you want him in is also wrong. I feel this is the main thing that causes the never ending circular argument on here I didn't say sticking to a position is wrong, I said blindly sticking to a position and ignoring anything that is currently happening is wrong, regardless of the ultimate outcome. Having an opinion is one thing, it's the really early definitive statements that I have a problem with (the "we will never get promoted" type ones), followed by ignoring anything that's happening to back that statement up, because regardless of what happens, unless you have a time machine and already know what will happen you simply don't know that. Edit (trying to find a way of explaining my point) - people saying "it's coming home" is clearly a bit of fun, some people really believe England will win the the world cup and some people don't, and both views are equally valid, however the people who have gone out and got tattoos with "England 2018 World Cup winners" are wrong, if England happen to win they will have been really lucky, but that doesn't mean getting the tattoo in the first place was right. Does that make sense? First bold bit - Where did I say nothing changed? Second bold bit - At no point has anyone ignored progress (in the form of games won) - go back and read posts in here throughout the season. As for holding a position - if your position is that you feel he is not going to achieve his targets based on what you see in front of you, and hold that view because the issues as you perceive them still remain (not withstanding results in other areas) then that is a perfectly valid stance. I do agree that there are a lot of circular arguments on here. Whilst you may disagree with the "we will never get promoted" comments - ultimately they were right. And most of them were not based on some narrow-minded, unexplained hatred of Steve Bruce, or some desire to not be seen as fickle - it was based on what was happening on the pitch and how the squad was being built/utilised. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 minute ago, TheStagMan said: First bold bit - Where did I say nothing changed? Second bold bit - At no point has anyone ignored progress (in the form of games won) - go back and read posts in here throughout the season. As for holding a position - if your position is that you feel he is not going to achieve his targets based on what you see in front of you, and hold that view because the issues as you perceive them still remain (not withstanding results in other areas) then that is a perfectly valid stance. I do agree that there are a lot of circular arguments on here. Whilst you may disagree with the "we will never get promoted" comments - ultimately they were right. And most of them were not based on some narrow-minded, unexplained hatred of Steve Bruce, or some desire to not be seen as fickle - it was based on what was happening on the pitch and how the squad was being built/utilised. With 8 months of evidence the previous season to back it up. In fact i would say there was more evidence to support the idea he would fail than there was to suggest he'd succeed. Yet somehow its worthy of being mocked if you were consistent with your belief. Madness. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 23 hours ago, TRO said: I think he walked out on Hull......and O'Neill did on us.....i think Warnock did on Crystal Palace too. was Pulis with Crystal Palace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, A'Villan said: Been out of the loop for a week or two, and haven't caught up with what's transpired in the news. One quality that Bruce strikes me as having is motivation and in my uninformed opinion I could see him staying, even with the challenge ahead. He walked out on Hull due to a lack of ambition in the transfer window, but he was afforded every chance of success here. I've no clue as to what's really happening but I don't see him walking away due to the squad suffering temporary depletion, afterall, he's partially responsible for that and without doubt would have had an awareness of what's to come, to some degree at least. Say what you want about his football, but he doesn't strike me as a man lacking character or resilience. I mean you have to commend him for his efforts during a difficult time with his Mother. I don't see why he can't take the bull by the horns and rise up to face the challenge that is Aston Villa. Obviously it's a lot more complicated than tit for tat but he was afforded a season with his own squad, and by no means a poor one in his first season either. I imagine he'll have a fair bit of autonomy to run things as he sees best from a footballing perspective. If this is the opportunity of a lifetime he talks about then I don't see why he wouldn't want to show his worth and merit by giving it an honest crack while the chips are down. Motivation ? You're having a laugh. He couldn't even motivate the players in what was their most important game of the season, hence, the mess. Edited July 6, 2018 by sheepyvillian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Zatman said: was Pulis with Crystal Palace He walked out on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 15 hours ago, weedman said: Oh there have been a lot of very reasonable and thought out posts on both sides of the Bruce argument, for sure, and the way I wrote that definitely has come across as a bit dismissive of those opinions which I didn't mean to, however I stand by the point that anyone who said that we had "no chance of being promoted" at the start of last season were wrong regardless of what ultimately happened, because we clearly did have a good chance of being promoted. We were the 4th best performing team in the league last year and narrowly lost the playoff final, which of course ultimately is not good enough, but it is certainly better than "Bruce is a dinosaur", "we're never getting promoted" posts etc I hate the labelling of people on here as either Bruce in or Bruce out, you say anything positive about him and your accused by some of being blind and burying your head in the sand, anything negative and some will accuse you of not being a true fan etc. Its ridiculous. Bruce has good qualities and bad ones, he's a championship manager. He is clearly a decent manager for this level, more defensive than is currently in fashion with the trend towards all out attack and possession based football (which I find really boring aside from Pep teams, as they add the flair as well, watching Spain play for example is mind numbingly boring), he's not going to suddenly become a world class manager, he's not suddenly going to send teams out gung ho because he favours defensive solidarity (as do a lot of very successful teams, Man Utd, for one). At the end of the season I wanted him gone, get a new guy in and see where it takes us, but with all the uncertainty going on in my opinion it would be foolish to get rid of him now, with a weaker team defensive solidarity is more likely the best way to go - see Cardiff. I accept that many people will have different opinions to me, and there are good arguments for and against, but I for one won't be making and definitive statements about what will or won't happen either way because none of us know Straight to the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts