Steve Bruce

[A'Villan]

2 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

Motivation ? Your having a laugh. He couldn't even motivate the players in what was their most important game of the season, hence, the mess.

I'm not. I think his tactics and how we set up were what was lacking. Especially come the POF where Fulham ran the first half.

To me, it seemed like he had the players on side and playing for him. It was preparation, planning and organisation that let us down.

Grealish says he loves playing under Bruce, why? It can't be for his adept tactical nous and knowledge. I'd guess it's because he gives Grealish confidence and motivation to play his game.

Whilst I know we had the strongest squad, a team doesn't finish fourth in a professional division based purely on the cogs in the wheel, something about it's assembly has to be correct.

For me one thing Bruce did succeed in was creating a professional and functional team environment, which requires motivation.

Not to mention the fact that he chose to continue with the biggest job of his career after the death of his parents, I'm not excusing his failure in saying that, just acknowledging some courage and motivation shown by Bruce. Credit where it's due.

[sheepyvillian]

19 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

I'm not. I think his tactics and how we set up were what was lacking. Especially come the POF where Fulham ran the first half.

To me, it seemed like he had the players on side and playing for him. It was preparation, planning and organisation that let us down.

Grealish says he loves playing under Bruce, why? It can't be for his adept tactical nous and knowledge. I'd guess it's because he gives Grealish confidence and motivation to play his game.

Whilst I know we had the strongest squad, a team doesn't finish fourth in a professional division based purely on the cogs in the wheel, something about it's assembly has to be correct.

For me one thing Bruce did succeed in was creating a professional and functional team environment, which requires motivation.

Not to mention the fact that he chose to continue with the biggest job of his career after the death of his parents, I'm not excusing his failure in saying that, just acknowledging some courage and motivation shown by Bruce. Credit where it's due.

We had automatic promotion in our hands after the Wolves game. Where was the motivation then ? He failed, when in mattered most. So there is no credit due, not from me anyway.

[A'Villan]

4 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

We had automatic promotion in our hands after the Wolves game. Where was the motivation then ? He failed, when in mattered most. So there is no credit due, not from me anyway.

If being in that position in itself is not motivation for players, I don't know how they've made it to be pro thus far. You need more than motivation to achieve success in the top tiers of sport.

As I've said throughout the forum, I think it was a lack of planning and tactics that saw us fall short. I suppose you could say he failed to motivate the players in this regard.

We agree that he failed when it mattered most. While I am not pleased or even content with what I have seen under Bruce for the most part, I do believe he had some minor victories as manager.

[striker]

On 04/07/2018 at 21:36, OutByEaster? said:

Cardiffs wage bill was £29m last year - for comparison Fulham's was £37m - Wolves was £28m. Ours was £61m. It's no wonder we're in trouble.

Unless there's a takeover, I think a playoff tilt is an unrealistic expectation - in fact, with a takeover I think it's a pretty unrealistic expectation. FFP means you can't make a quick bounce recovery.

 

 

Fair enough but I wasn't referring to further massive investment. I feel as stated before with the right balance of integrating the younger players coming through and the experienced players left at the club there is still enough there to mount a challenge for sixth in the Championship.

It could also be argued that the teams you mentioned were promoted with inferior squads to Villa and as you say lesser wage bill so why can't Villa do the same?

Too many doom and gloom merchants on here at the moment which I fear goes beyond realism.

 

[S-Platt]

just wanted to post on page 1874 for luck!

Bruce might surprise us all with attacking swashbuckling football this year but then maybe not!

Up the Villa!!

[sheepyvillian]

6 hours ago, A'Villan said:

If being in that position in itself is not motivation for players, I don't know how they've made it to be pro thus far. You need more than motivation to achieve success in the top tiers of sport.

As I've said throughout the forum, I think it was a lack of planning and tactics that saw us fall short. I suppose you could say he failed to motivate the players in this regard.

We agree that he failed when it mattered most. While I am not pleased or even content with what I have seen under Bruce for the most part, I do believe he had some minor victories as manager.

I want a manager who is going to achieve whatever targets he has been set. Bruce's was promotion, it should of been automatic, but it inexplicably went begging. We managed the play - off final and decided not to turn up for the first half. I'm not interested in minor victory's, whatever they are ? Look at where we are to where we could of been ?

[briny_ear]

7 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

I want a manager who is going to achieve whatever targets he has been set. Bruce's was promotion, it should of been automatic, but it inexplicably went begging. We managed the play - off final and decided not to turn up for the first half. I'm not interested in minor victory's, whatever they are ? Look at where we are to where we could of been ?

Sounds easy doesn't it? Set a promotion target. Tell the manager to achieve it. He achieves it. What could be simpler? Don’t know why every club doesn’t  just do that and everyone gets promoted.

Unfortunately that annoying thing called The Real World  tends to intervene in these plans. Contingency, loss of form, injuries, other teams hitting better form, all these bothersome things can get in the way of The Plan.

Come to think of it, maybe this is the point that Xia missed. You can’t just order promotion like a takeaway.

[sheepyvillian]

15 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Sounds easy doesn't it? Set a promotion target. Tell the manager to achieve it. He achieves it. What could be simpler? Don’t know why every club doesn’t  just do that and everyone gets promoted.

Unfortunately that annoying thing called The Real World  tends to intervene in these plans. Contingency, loss of form, injuries, other teams hitting better form, all these bothersome things can get in the way of The Plan.

Come to think of it, maybe this is the point that Xia missed. You can’t just order promotion like a takeaway.

No need for stereotypes.

[A'Villan]

32 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

I want a manager who is going to achieve whatever targets he has been set. Bruce's was promotion, it should of been automatic, but it inexplicably went begging. We managed the play - off final and decided not to turn up for the first half. I'm not interested in minor victory's, whatever they are ? Look at where we are to where we could of been ?

The next step is always the most important one and where my interest is. Where we could have been is one division higher, how significant that step up might've been goes beyond my understanding of the club. The way I see it though, based on what's transpired, is that we'd still be governed by the decisions of the same leadership, who let their mouths overload their backs and were negligent in the process. There was no Villa Engine plan it was an appeal to the fans at best, propaganda at worst. There was talk of European success within an impractical amount of time. Maybe I am missing some stroke of genius that Xia possesses (and I initially thought he might have) and has been robbed of due to improbable misfortune. All that has come and gone would suggest that is not the case though.

Back on topic, Bruce is not immune from responsibility in all this. He failed on many fronts. Yet I am not prepared to dismiss him as a complete failure. It is a competition, and that involves everyone. Villa were not the only team trying to best their opponents. I agree with you in that Bruce should of had us automatically promoted, but he was not so far off. Minor victories include remaining competitive and on track for our objective all the way to the last possible hurdle, which we stumbled on. Imagine Jack's run and shot had gone in. One shot. This failure of a manager might have achieved the success that makes or breaks him in your view, from what I gather. Another minor victory was the performances against Bristol and Wolves. Took them to school and showed our capability in this division.

If you didn't enjoy a moment of Bruce's tenure last season then that's your prerogative, I did, and I consider that another small victory.

@sheepyvillian

Edited July 6, 2018 by A'Villan

[briny_ear]

7 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

No need for stereotypes.

No idea what that means but by saying you want a manager who will get us promotion you are ignoring the fact that quite a lot of clubs want promotion and only 3 can get it. It is much more complex than simply ordering promotion from the manager.

[A'Villan]

19 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

No idea what that means but by saying you want a manager who will get us promotion you are ignoring the fact that quite a lot of clubs want promotion and only 3 can get it. It is much more complex than simply ordering promotion from the manager.

I think @sheepyvillian has considered and factored most of that in to his/her thinking. Saying that he/she wants a manager that will reach their objective does not imply a lack of understanding for the events and requirements of last season.

If I am right in thinking that, then I would pose the question, so what if we had got promoted? Bruce achieves the targets, are we therefore defining the season as a success? We are a division higher, with some promotion money, yet in my view we still lack the most fundamental ingredients for success. Sound decision making.

From Bruce to Wyness to Xia it's been indulgent and even negligent. That's how it appears to me. It's like we were going to wing it to the Champion's League.

Edited July 6, 2018 by A'Villan

[omariqy]

Bruce out.

[DCJonah]

1 hour ago, briny_ear said:

Sounds easy doesn't it? Set a promotion target. Tell the manager to achieve it. He achieves it. What could be simpler? Don’t know why every club doesn’t  just do that and everyone gets promoted.

Unfortunately that annoying thing called The Real World  tends to intervene in these plans. Contingency, loss of form, injuries, other teams hitting better form, all these bothersome things can get in the way of The Plan.

Come to think of it, maybe this is the point that Xia missed. You can’t just order promotion like a takeaway.

Everyone accepts that. And those things are taken into account. 

However, with the resources he had he ultimately failed. I don't think that was down to the things you mention, i think it was more down to the team, style of play and approach to games that the manager has implemented. 

Therefore, he failed. And his failure is going to cause massive long term issues at the club. Which was my worry when we didn't sack him back in the summer. 

[sheepyvillian]

4 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Everyone accepts that. And those things are taken into account. 

However, with the resources he had he ultimately failed. I don't think that was down to the things you mention, i think it was more down to the team, style of play and approach to games that the manager has implemented. 

Therefore, he failed. And his failure is going to cause massive long term issues at the club. Which was my worry when we didn't sack him back in the summer. 

It doesn't take rocket science to see where we went wrong. You get what you deserve.

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

The next step is always the most important one and where my interest is. Where we could have been is one division higher, how significant that step up might've been goes beyond my understanding of the club. The way I see it though, based on what's transpired, is that we'd still be governed by the decisions of the same leadership, who let their mouths overload their backs and were negligent in the process. There was no Villa Engine plan it was an appeal to the fans at best, propaganda at worst. There was talk of European success within an impractical amount of time. Maybe I am missing some stroke of genius that Xia possesses (and I initially thought he might have) and has been robbed of due to improbable misfortune. All that has come and gone would suggest that is not the case though.

Back on topic, Bruce is not immune from responsibility in all this. He failed on many fronts. Yet I am not prepared to dismiss him as a complete failure. It is a competition, and that involves everyone. Villa were not the only team trying to best their opponents. I agree with you in that Bruce should of had us automatically promoted, but he was not so far off. Minor victories include remaining competitive and on track for our objective all the way to the last possible hurdle, which we stumbled on. Imagine Jack's run and shot had gone in. One shot. This failure of a manager might have achieved the success that makes or breaks him in your view, from what I gather. Another minor victory was the performances against Bristol and Wolves. Took them to school and showed our capability in this division.

If you didn't enjoy a moment of Bruce's tenure last season then that's your prerogative, I did, and I consider that another small victory.

@sheepyvillian

I didn't.

[TheStagMan]

3 hours ago, A'Villan said:

If you didn't enjoy a moment of Bruce's tenure last season then that's your prerogative, I did, and I consider that another small victory.

@sheepyvillian

I enjoyed a lot of last season. I enjoyed every victory, just as I didn't enjoy every loss. I enjoyed that we had something that should have been achievable as a target and it was realistic in terms of expectations. I immensely enjoyed the Wolves victory. That doesn't mean that everything was rosy. I still fretted about the weaknesses we had, the short term approach, the lack of a plan B on the pitch and overall. I felt that it was an all or nothing season and that financially we would be screwed without promotion - just not realising exactly how screwed we would be.

Ultimately despite the wins, despite all the records broken, it wasn't enough. Ultimately we failed, Bruce failed. The club management had made the decision to go for broke and gamble everything on achieving it. That was Bruce's job. He signed his own team, had a full preseason and three transfer windows, plus more financial backing than at any other club he has been at, on what was clearly a single shot at achieving promotion (no long term signings, no development of our youth (please don't bring Keinan Davis up as an example - he had no choice), old players on short contracts, loans, without developing our own players as backups) leaving us in a position where we are now broke and have lost those loanees - leaving us with gaps in the squad. 

Bruce failed, and he should go because of that failure - but because of that failure, we unfortunately are not in a position to get rid of him now. 

Maybe he will surprise us this season, I hope so. I have zero expectations of promotion and would like to see something built for the long term - a playing style, a sound financial footing and development of our youth. I doubt that Bruce will do that - I don't think he has that mindset. But lets be charitable and hope he will adapt to the new situation where his usual approach is not available to him. Maybe he can get us to the playoffs again - if he does, given our current situation then that will be an achievement.

*to be clear - my position on Bruce is that I want him out of the club, I don't think he is the man to take us forward and he has failed. However, being pragmatic, I think he is our only line of stability at the moment and is our best bet at not imploding in the short term. I will happily sacrifice the coming season (in terms of promotion) if it saves the club longer term, we no longer have the money to buy promotion so need to look at a longer term approach - hopefully we get a new owner with this mindset, and Bruce keeps us running until then. 

Edited July 6, 2018 by TheStagMan
oops, said zero expectation of survival, I meant promotion. :-)

[dukes]

1 hour ago, omariqy said:

Bruce out.

Bruce in

[DaveAV1]

4 minutes ago, dukes said:

Bruce in

Shake it all about!

[A'Villan]

53 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

I enjoyed a lot of last season. I enjoyed every victory, just as I didn't enjoy every loss. I enjoyed that we had something that should have been achievable as a target and it was realistic in terms of expectations. I immensely enjoyed the Wolves victory. That doesn't mean that everything was rosy. I still fretted about the weaknesses we had, the short term approach, the lack of a plan B on the pitch and overall. I felt that it was an all or nothing season and that financially we would be screwed without promotion - just not realising exactly how screwed we would be.

Ultimately despite the wins, despite all the records broken, it wasn't enough. Ultimately we failed, Bruce failed. The club management had made the decision to go for broke and gamble everything on achieving it. That was Bruce's job. He signed his own team, had a full preseason and three transfer windows, plus more financial backing than at any other club has been at, on what was clearly a single shot at achieving promotion (no long term signings, no development of our youth (please don't bring Keinan Davis up as an example - he had no choice), old players on short contracts, loans, without developing our own players as backups) leaving us in a position where we are now broke and have lost those loanees - leaving us with gaps in the squad. 

Bruce failed, and he should go because of that failure - but because of that failure, we unfortunately are not in a position to get rid of him now. 

Maybe he will surprise us this season, I hope so. I have zero expectations of survival and would like to see something built for the long term - a playing style, a sound financial footing and development of our youth. I doubt that Bruce will do that - I don't think he has that mindset. But lets be charitable and hope he will adapt to the new situation where his usual approach is not available to him. Maybe he can get us to the playoffs again - if he does, given our current situation then that will be an achievement.

*to be clear - my position on Bruce is that I want him out of the club, I don't think he is the man to take us forward and he has failed. However, being pragmatic, I think he is our only line of stability at the moment and is our best bet at not imploding in the short term. I will happily sacrifice the coming season (in terms of promotion) if it saves the club longer term, we no longer have the money to buy promotion so need to look at a longer term approach - hopefully we get a new owner with this mindset, and Bruce keeps us running until then. 

"Well said" doesn't do this post justice.

A pretty accurate summary of my sentiments too, except that I was possibly a lot more confident of promotion under Bruce early on with less reservations about the squad assembled due to an ignorance of the expense at which it was built and the future consequence. While we agree on Bruce's shortcomings, we may differ on the topic of how useful some of our signings can be for the future. Whilst we grossly overpaid, we are not going to lose them all, and we have a number of players in their prime, previously elite in this division, albeit they have not enjoyed resounding success while at Villa, I see no reason why a good manager can't rekindle their form, hopefully for what will be a competitive campaign at least.

I hope anyone banging the drum about Bruce out supporters being rigid/close minded in their thinking reads your post.

Edited July 6, 2018 by A'Villan

[TheStagMan]

38 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

"Well said" doesn't do this post justice.

A pretty accurate summary of my sentiments too, except that I was possibly a lot more confident of promotion under Bruce early on with less reservations about the squad assembled due to an ignorance of the expense at which it was built and the future consequence. While we agree on Bruce's shortcomings, we may differ on the topic of how useful some of our signings can be for the future. Whilst we grossly overpaid, we are not going to lose them all, and we have a number of players in their prime, previously elite in this division, albeit they have not enjoyed resounding success while at Villa, I see no reason why a good manager can't rekindle their form, hopefully for what will be a competitive campaign at least.

I hope anyone banging the drum about Bruce out supporters being rigid/close minded in their thinking reads your post.

Thanks.

I do think we have a decent championship squad, still - obviously depending on what happens in the next few weeks. Expectations are that we will lose our key players, if we don't then that is a happy bonus.

We have lost Terry and Snodgrass, a lot of experience and very good players. Grabban has gone, taking his goals with him and we have lost our keeper. That to me has taken the edge off our team.

Gabby, Samba, Tuanzebe and Onomah have gone as well, but are no great loss

Key players for me, that we have to keep hold of are (in no particular order): Adomah, Kodjia (both of whom need to find their form), Chester, Hourihane and of course, Grealish. If we keep hold of Grealish (and he doesn't get injured) we have a stab at scraping playoffs, if not mid-table seems a reasonable expectations if we can keep hold of the others