HanoiVillan Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 minute ago, TRO said: Granted. but my point is....if we are playing players who are not good enough, don't be surprised at the out come....and furthermore, don't be surprised at the ones who are good enough, getting knackered towards the end of a game. we may have to get one in on loan, until we identify the right player for purchase. I think we're definitely going to have to either loan or sign one in January, and maybe even 2 depending on injury situations. But in the meantime, we have to pick one, and I currently have more faith in Kodjia to do something than I do in Wesley (though not if we're just going to pump long balls at him). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted October 3, 2019 Moderator Share Posted October 3, 2019 He's got two things in abundance that Davis and Wesley haven't. Quick feet, and the confidence to try something different. I wouldn't start him against Norwich, but I'd be itching to bring him on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 He must be rustier than a tin man in a monsoon. 36 minutes of competitive football in total since the regular season ended on may 5th I was about to post, but then remembered he played in the AFCON in July so there is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: I think we're definitely going to have to either loan or sign one in January, and maybe even 2 depending on injury situations. But in the meantime, we have to pick one, and I currently have more faith in Kodjia to do something than I do in Wesley (though not if we're just going to pump long balls at him). My dilemma is I see different attributes in all of them, you gain one thing and lose another .....If you could make a hybrid, it might solve it ( hypothetically speaking of course) Kodjia has always been searching for consistency of performance....on his day, few people doubt his ability....His ability to hold the ball up will be paramount to John McGinn continuing to be a threat......The ball has to stick up front and it didn't last match. This will be our incremental progression where new players need to be more rounded, more complete players.....it can be applied to all positions. right now take out Jack , John and Mings and we would be in proper trouble.......The others need to step it up. Edited October 3, 2019 by TRO 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 I think Davis is the least good out of our 3 striker (not saying least talented as that remains to be seen). I also think Davis might be the most beneficial to the way we play as his strength and hold up play will help bring more of our players into attacking positions. Kodjia also has hold up play in a fashion but he lacks vision and rarely tries to find a teammate when he has the ball. He has moments of brilliance thou. Wesley? No idea yet, think he has to change his mentality. Big strong guy playing like a weakling trying to get something from the ref rather than win the ball. Our options are not great atm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) If only watching video clips of magic moments was the answer.....to all our woes.....We would be league champions. but sadly there is a element of pitch craft that involves decison making, physicality, durability, competitiveness and game management that has a huge bearing on the out come of games.....sadly its overlooked by some. We pay our money, for moments of entertainment,nothing wrong with that, but its a results business which gives it that crucial competitive edge....They call it the best league in the world, not because those magic moments are better than the the other European leagues, they produce them too.....but because the lower teams are not cannon fodder and can affect wins against the higher teams by work rate, durability , physicality and an ability to grind out results, through graft and tenacity. We didn't win the League and European cup, because we had the best technically gifted team, arguably Ipswich had that accolade at home and Bayern Munich was much better than us Technically on the continent. Ron Saunders had a vision and it was driven primarily by the funds he had to operate with, his Mantra was 110% work rate, but he built a team full of round pegs in round holes etc and it worked as a team....sure there was some technical ability, Like Gary Shaw, who I can't remember getting caught on the ball & a nose for scoring & Sid with his "Hoddle" like passing or Peter withe with his aerial prowess......but in the main, its was all the other things outside pretty football that gave us that competitive edge that our opponents found challenging.....In those days by and Large, we went 1-0 up the game was all over, they were scrooge like in conceding......They knew how to contain, they knew how to wait for their moment, they knew how to manage a game.....we wasn't big scorers in those days, his previous team was with Gray,Deehan and Little when we come fourth, but Ron wanted the title and knew we had to be less cavalier and more mean. We have some fine players, but as a team we need to have the ability to tighten up at crucial moments.....No one advocates defensive football and all out attacking is cavalier and naive......We have to find the balance that gives us the ability to secure points in this league. Edited October 3, 2019 by TRO 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, sne said: I think Davis is the least good out of our 3 striker (not saying least talented as that remains to be seen). I also think Davis might be the most beneficial to the way we play as his strength and hold up play will help bring more of our players into attacking positions. Kodjia also has hold up play in a fashion but he lacks vision and rarely tries to find a teammate when he has the ball. He has moments of brilliance thou. Wesley? No idea yet, think he has to change his mentality. Big strong guy playing like a weakling trying to get something from the ref rather than win the ball. Our options are not great atm. The problem for us is......they all have the good bits of some sort.....but lack the complete thing or close to the complete thing ,for various reasons. It is difficult for the manager to choose.....because you gain some attributes and lose others. Edited October 3, 2019 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 minute ago, TRO said: The problem for us is......they all have the good bits of some sort.....but lack the complete thing or close to the complete thing ,for various reasons. It is difficult for the manager to choose.....because you gain some attributes and lose others. Absolutely. And since Kodjia has been injured and Davis is unproved and still learning the choice has been rather easy since Wesley is a player they scouted and ended up signing for exorbitant money. Remains to see how Smith will handle it as the season goes on. Wesley needs to step up or he will have no choice but to try something different. Until January at least this will mean Kodjia or Davis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 hour ago, TRO said: Whether he is good enough at this level does matter, its crucial. its not much point playing a player over the next 13 games, who is not good enough....in such circumstances what exactly are we hoping for? It's another option though. 1-1 with 15 minutes left v Brighton and more points slipping through our fingers in winnable home game. In that situation I'd much rather see Kodj come on than Davis as well one knows where the goal is and the other at this point in his career dosen't. I do agree Kodj has lost a bit after two serious injuries but I watched him in AFCON and he looked pretty effective so I do think he could score a goal or two against lower ranked prem teams if he gets enough minutes against them which is pretty important to our season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 With Davis I personally think it would be better for him to start a game. Just bringing him on with ten minutes left and immediately people think he's going to be the goalscoring supersub so more pressure. At least starting him other things will be expected like holding it up and getting Trez, Grealish and McGinn into the game in final third. Maybe the plan will be him starting at Norwich and see how it goes for an hour and then bring on Wes and Kodjia. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, VillaChris said: It's another option though. 1-1 with 15 minutes left v Brighton and more points slipping through our fingers in winnable home game. In that situation I'd much rather see Kodj come on than Davis as well one knows where the goal is and the other at this point in his career dosen't. I do agree Kodj has lost a bit after two serious injuries but I watched him in AFCON and he looked pretty effective so I do think he could score a goal or two against lower ranked prem teams if he gets enough minutes against them which is pretty important to our season. I get that....I was countering a comment that it doesn't matter if he is good enough or not.. It is a case of we have what we have......so my point is, its no surprise when we fail, then. The players HAVE to be good enough....even,to survive. I think we could have beat Burnley, there was enough opportunity to have done so......but as much as i got consumed in frustration, I could not help but admire the tenacity and single minded doggedness of Rodriguez,Barnes and Woods....They Won Burnley a point.That "never say die "attitude and ruggedness that is sometimes required. John McGinn has that same outlook as them .....but we need more of it in other positions. Edited October 3, 2019 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Players not good enough can still score a goal or two up to January that could win us six points. If he's fit he needs to be available (which I imagine will happen anyway given he was on the bench v Spurs) and I wouldn't be adverse to him starting in games v Brighton and Newcastle at home when we need to be on the front foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko154 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 It's funny that in Kodjia's first season he smashed it with a poor team around him. We said imagine how good he could be with a good team around him. Second season he missed due to injury. During the car crash of a summer we all were desperate for him to stay at the club. Third season with a good team he was kept out by Tammy who was more than prolific. Fourth season, we now have a good team. Surely we should at least give him a chance to show what he can do? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 minute ago, VillaChris said: Players not good enough can still score a goal or two up to January that could win us six points. If he's fit he needs to be available (which I imagine will happen anyway given he was on the bench v Spurs) and I wouldn't be adverse to him starting in games v Brighton and Newcastle at home when we need to be on the front foot. It depends what context " good enough" is.....I think a lot is talked about relating to Technical ability at such times......personally, I have no qualms with Kodj on that front. Its the ugly side that is so easily dismissed by some that equally gets you goals....I.e Danny Ings chasing lost causes or the 2 against us last Saturday. That's the doubts I have with Kodj, not his ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, wilko154 said: It's funny that in Kodjia's first season he smashed it with a poor team around him. We said imagine how good he could be with a good team around him. Second season he missed due to injury. During the car crash of a summer we all were desperate for him to stay at the club. Third season with a good team he was kept out by Tammy who was more than prolific. Fourth season, we now have a good team. Surely we should at least give him a chance to show what he can do? He's also up against vastly superior opponents and is 3 years older having had 2 bad injuries. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, wilko154 said: It's funny that in Kodjia's first season he smashed it with a poor team around him. We said imagine how good he could be with a good team around him. Second season he missed due to injury. During the car crash of a summer we all were desperate for him to stay at the club. Third season with a good team he was kept out by Tammy who was more than prolific. Fourth season, we now have a good team. Surely we should at least give him a chance to show what he can do? I agree. Tammy showed a much more forceful front a much more determined player....and once he started scoring it was difficult for Kodj to dislodge him. Edited October 3, 2019 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, sne said: He's also up against vastly superior opponents and is 3 years older having had 2 bad injuries. I think that is the central issue. I am not trying to be critical for the sake of it......but when I have seen in the past and physically adept defenders come up against him, Kodj slips in to passive mode......for me, he has a very debatable ability to mix it and impose himself. If the Opportunity presents itself i.e half soaked defenders, he can hurt teams. He is too easily negated against determined opponents. but I am happy for him to prove me wrong......However, I accept, give him a go. Edited October 3, 2019 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WakefieldVillan Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 hour ago, TRO said: If only watching video clips of magic moments was the answer.....to all our woes.....We would be league champions. but sadly there is a element of pitch craft that involves decison making, physicality, durability, competitiveness and game management that has a huge bearing on the out come of games.....sadly its overlooked by some. We pay our money, for moments of entertainment,nothing wrong with that, but its a results business which gives it that crucial competitive edge....They call it the best league in the world, not because those magic moments are better than the the other European leagues, they produce them too.....but because the lower teams are not cannon fodder and can affect wins against the higher teams by work rate, durability , physicality and an ability to grind out results, through graft and tenacity. We didn't win the League and European cup, because we had the best technically gifted team, arguably Ipswich had that accolade at home and Bayern Munich was much better than us Technically on the continent. Ron Saunders had a vision and it was driven primarily by the funds he had to operate with, his Mantra was 110% work rate, but he built a team full of round pegs in round holes etc and it worked as a team....sure there was some technical ability, Like Gary Shaw, who I can't remember getting caught on the ball & a nose for scoring & Sid with his "Hoddle" like passing or Peter withe with his aerial prowess......but in the main, its was all the other things outside pretty football that gave us that competitive edge that our opponents found challenging.....In those days by and Large, we went 1-0 up the game was all over, they were scrooge like in conceding......They knew how to contain, they knew how to wait for their moment, they knew how to manage a game.....we wasn't big scorers in those days, his previous team was with Gray,Deehan and Little when we come fourth, but Ron wanted the title and knew we had to be less cavalier and more mean. We have some fine players, but as a team we need to have the ability to tighten up at crucial moments.....No one advocates defensive football and all out attacking is cavalier and naive......We have to find the balance that gives us the ability to secure points in this league. Off topic, but I love hearing your views of our successful 81/82 side, I would give anything to witness something like that in my lifetime - I was only 4 or 5... Hopefully one day.... You also talk lots of sense on your posts With regards to Kodjia, will be nice to see him as an option from the bench, he is a different alternative to what we have, capable of real class moments, but can be frustrating to watch at the same time. Not sure how many years are left on his contract but I feel that this season might be his last in a Villa shirt (if we stay up more so). I think this has to be his time to kick on and prove his worth. Really hope he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 15 hours ago, useless said: I think this idea that fans rate players more the more they don't play is an utter cliche that people seem to lazily latch onto, yes it can be the case sometimes, but with Kodjia's he has actually been decent overall when he plays, it's not as if people are hoping he can make a worthwhile contribution based on nothing. And he's not comparable to Hogan, Hogan scored goals for half a season with Brentford, whilst Kodjia has scored goals in Ligue B, in the championship with Bristol City and us and on the international stage with Les Éléphants. He may not be the answer, but I don't think he deserves to be written off any more than any of other attackers, I'm not expecting miracles but no reason why he can't chip in with one or two valuable goals. Don't forget with us as well. He literally carried our team for a whole season. Crazy how short memories can get following a couple of injuries and a fall down the pecking order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoony Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 I’d start him. Can’t be worse than Wesley and I don’t think Davies can lead the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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