AntrimBlack Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Reference FFP, the Premier League recently levied a paltry fine against one of the CH clubs for running foul of their rules. It was around 75% of what Wyness is suing the club for. Is FFP really the big problem the club is telling us it is, or is it a convenient scapegoat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, AntrimBlack said: Reference FFP, the Premier League recently levied a paltry fine against one of the CH clubs for running foul of their rules. It was around 75% of what Wyness is suing the club for. Is FFP really the big problem the club is telling us it is, or is it a convenient scapegoat? Scapegoat for what though? Excuse me if it's an obvious answer, my mind is elsewhere. I fail to see why selling our best chance of promotion is going to be more profitable than promotion itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TheEgo Posted July 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2018 17 hours ago, Nabby said: I think the point was Xia or any other owner coming in with money makes no dif , FFP will hold us back By now many know that ffp (whilst being a genuine matter of concern, but not until next May) is a total bluff for severe cash problems. We need to sell several first teamers to A. Pay the bills and yes B. reduce the FFP losses. Let's not kid ourselves though. Xia is a BS artist and now has a face in Bruce where he now can hide away in China and not say a word until it all implodes OR he sells. If seeking investment doesn't affect ffp why seek it? It's purely because he needs help paying the bills and has already loaned against everything he can. He needs to sell and clear the f**k off 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEgo Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, A'Villan said: Scapegoat for what though? Excuse me if it's an obvious answer, my mind is elsewhere. I fail to see why selling our best chance of promotion is going to be more profitable than promotion itself. If you can't pay your bills you cease trading and go into Administration. FFP isn't a problem until Next May. The reason we will have a fire sale is for Xia to pay bills and meet his commitment to debtors and avoid Administration and complete ruin and no chance of taking any money back. let's see if player sales get put back into the accounts.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, TheEgo said: If you can't pay your bills you cease trading and go into Administration. FFP isn't a problem until Next May. The reason we will have a fire sale is for Xia to pay bills and meet his commitment to debtors and avoid Administration and complete ruin and no chance of taking any money back. let's see if player sales get put back into the accounts.... You can probably clear this up, Tony's statement about AVFC having no bank loans - what other debt does the club have and to who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 10, 2018 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, TheEgo said: FFP isn't a problem until Next May. March actually (a pedant writes), but the rest of the post is wholly valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pintpotvilla Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 TX tells us that we have no bank loans. Well we have 2 arrangements with Maquarie Bank forwarding money in exchange for the outstanding amounts due in the future from the sales of players. We obviously will not get anywhere near the amount owed to us. Wrap it up however he wants I call those arrangements Bank loans!! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEgo Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 16 minutes ago, blandy said: March actually (a pedant writes), but the rest of the post is wholly valid. I realised after, but figured it would be corrected. Cheers!! it is a right old mess isn't it?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEgo Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Jareth said: You can probably clear this up, Tony's statement about AVFC having no bank loans - what other debt does the club have and to who? Well that's the thing, we don't entirely know. What is clear is the money taken from future earnings of player trading (as we've seen with Westwood, Snachez, Veretout) Where we've loaned against their owed fees to get cash now. This after the missed tax bill is what gives thought to him having serious cash flow issues (why else do it?) There are pieces of land that has been borrowed against as well as the final Parachute payment. So the 'no bank loan' is very sly, as it certainly doesn't equate to 'no debt' The big worry for me is WHO, WHERE and exactly WHAT is owed and to what parties. Also what are the repayment clauses and what are the interest charges on said loans AND who is culpable should their be a failure to meet a required payment (As we've seen today AC Milan have just been taken over by their owners 'debtors' ) will it be the club or Xia personally? So for me, despite his 'open letter' there is very little transparency from Xia. The other MAJOR thing to factor in is how are we operating day to day, ie how are we paying the bills now when we struggled last month, who again is supplying the cash/debt to do this? If a 'billionaire' is seeking investment but it won't help with ffp, A. he's really not a billionaire and B. What is he seeking the investment for? It's clear to me it is for 'operating capital' so he can keep paying the bills until he can sell (when he feels it looks like it's of his doing) of course no one is going to invest in those circumstances. My view on where he's at now is he wants out (despite what he says) but he wants it to appear on his terms. He will keep rejected offers for a stake (as they will all rightly want some say and control) and will either strike lucky and get an offer that works for him OR (and more likely imo) we will struggle to pay bills and end up slipping into Administration. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEgo Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 22 minutes ago, pintpotvilla said: TX tells us that we have no bank loans. Well we have 2 arrangements with Maquarie Bank forwarding money in exchange for the outstanding amounts due in the future from the sales of players. We obviously will not get anywhere near the amount owed to us. Wrap it up however he wants I call those arrangements Bank loans!! They are indeed, this is why he's been evasive with the truth. Them loans differ in that yes it's an agreement with a bank to give us cash, but no the onus is on a third party to pay the money back, so it's not our debt. It was future capital he borrowed against. It's all the stuff he hasn't said that we ought to be more concerned about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 10, 2018 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2018 Just now, TheEgo said: They are indeed, this is why he's been evasive with the truth. Them loans differ in that yes it's an agreement with a bank to give us cash, but no the onus is on a third party to pay the money back, so it's not our debt. It was future capital he borrowed against. It's all the stuff he hasn't said that we ought to be more concerned about. Plus the fact that he's said he's looking to sell 1/3rd of the club tells us he has no money. You only seek outside investment if you can't do it yourself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooter Posted July 10, 2018 Visiting Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, TheEgo said: They are indeed, this is why he's been evasive with the truth. Them loans differ in that yes it's an agreement with a bank to give us cash, but no the onus is on a third party to pay the money back, so it's not our debt. It was future capital he borrowed against. It's all the stuff he hasn't said that we ought to be more concerned about. Bates was an object lesson in "creative loans", largely because most banks had no interest in lending to him. Debt accrued to strange unidentifiable BVI-based vehicles, and latterly all manner of "pay day loans for corporate entities" companies when hocking future ticket and catering income. GFH were if anything worse, they just loaded the club with punitive debt owed to them, if the club "owes" Xia as well as others it obviously explains why a. he won't sell yet , and b. he'll sell anything or anyone he can, at any half decent price, if he gets cash up front to keep the club running whilst it simultaneously sells other assets to "repay it's debt to him". Once the virus is embedded in a football club, the lack of clarity and "delayed accountability" that companies house rules allow mean it is a bastard of a task to work out what damage is being done before it is too late, with an eye to our many scars I'd suggest assume the worst until he can prove you wrong, and do anything you can to unsettle and eventually remove him. Sadly you'll find loads of your fanbase just won't or can't understand what is happening, and the battle is to get them onside so as you have strength in numbers. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaccoeOnline Posted July 10, 2018 Visiting Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, hooter said: Bates was an object lesson in "creative loans", largely because most banks had no interest in lending to him. Debt accrued to strange unidentifiable BVI-based vehicles, and latterly all manner of "pay day loans for corporate entities" companies when hocking future ticket and catering income. GFH were if anything worse, they just loaded the club with punitive debt owed to them, if the club "owes" Xia as well as others it obviously explains why a. he won't sell yet , and b. he'll sell anything or anyone he can, at any half decent price, if he gets cash up front to keep the club running whilst it simultaneously sells other assets to "repay it's debt to him". Once the virus is embedded in a football club, the lack of clarity and "delayed accountability" that companies house rules allow mean it is a bastard of a task to work out what damage is being done before it is too late, with an eye to our many scars I'd suggest assume the worst until he can prove you wrong, and do anything you can to unsettle and eventually remove him. Sadly you'll find loads of your fanbase just won't or can't understand what is happening, and the battle is to get them onside so as you have strength in numbers. The worst case, based on what we sufffered is that as Xia is now “acting CEO” as he claims, that will come at some considerable cost in “management expenses”, with extra on top to cover the considerable expertise brought to the table by the 29 year old Loughborough sports studies graduate. And that’s before payments are made for the weapons grade HR skills that professor woman is contributing to the business. As you point out, the trick GFH perfected to maximize income from that scam was buying us with our own debt. Then making us borrow more (from a company they happened to own) to cover those management fees, whilst starving us of cash to pay wages and pitch maintenance, etc. at the time my back of envelope calculations suggested they’d made a profit on their acquisition just through that, which made whatever they got for the wreck of the club they left behind a bonus. This meant that the next owner (utter loon that he was) was already doomed to fail whether or not he was competent (he wasn’t) as the debt around the clubs neck was somewhere close to our total value. A shame he somehow was conned into not doing due diligence prior to purchase... Bates’ wheeze was to create internal markets in which the club paid other entities owned by him for stuff most other clubs got for free internal or even raised cash from. Like Leeds United paying Yorkshire Radio for the right to broadcast our games (rather than the other way around). Or building contracts for work to the ground that were so excessive in value you wondered whether some of the money made its way back somehow as part of the deal (of course maybe he was just terrible at negotiating building contracts..) Do still think there is money for Xia to make out of the car crash by selling assets (like the ground) at under value to BVI entities with penal rent back arrangements and a cash kick back on the side. He may just lack the expertise in structuring it. I know of a currently under employed sports investor in Cornwall who might be willing to help if asked... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted July 10, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2018 We need him gone , question is , how can we help it happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooter Posted July 10, 2018 Visiting Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2018 33 minutes ago, tinker said: We need him gone , question is , how can we help it happen? Well, a good first port of call is to do al you can to heap shame upon him. Our Arab crooks hated that, as did bates and Cellino, I'm sure Xia will too. You need a group of folk willing to organise, in full knowledge they'll get shit from those who are blind to what is happening. Then you need to raise a bit of money, get someone in your support to design some damning posters, rent the billboards around VP and have your posters up for the first few weeks, nothing at all Xia or the club can do. Local press will be all over it, so you've free publicity. After that the world is your oyster depending how well you can galvanise support. Be innovative and do stuff the Birmingham mail will cover (tip them off), it'll then go notional, and social media will take it to Xia. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, blandy said: Plus the fact that he's said he's looking to sell 1/3rd of the club tells us he has no money. You only seek outside investment if you can't do it yourself. This is where I struggle. If he sells one third of the club then that money doesn't go to the club it goes to the idiot who preports to own us. Now can he invest that in the club? Why would he unless he thinks at some point he is going to recoup it at some point, and when I say at some point I cannot see us going up to the top tier this season coming or next so he is again gambling. If he does reinvest what does that mean to the investors who put the money in, presumably if they want to buy the remaining two thirds you would think that our owner (sic) will want to recoup that money too so they will in effect look to pay out the equivalent of four thirds to buy us. I am afraid he has to sell and go quickly because I cannot see how this will improve anytime soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I know that Steve Round wasn't exactly rated on here but I think I might prefer him sorting deals rather than the owner doing it on his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, mykeyb said: I know that Steve Round wasn't exactly rated on here but I think I might prefer him sorting deals rather than the owner doing it on his own. Did you see his supposed list of transfer targets? I think it’s better he’s gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooter Posted July 10, 2018 Visiting Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, tinker said: We need him gone , question is , how can we help it happen? As @WaccoeOnline said, if folk on here genuinely want some advice, then it is probable that the fellas who did the really innovative legwork at Leeds might be willing to give a few hints, either of us can certainly ask. The TimeToGoMassimo campaign became an art form, loads of viral social media stuff I don't begin to understand, they had EastEnders actors doing vids and all sorts, way beyond me. The Bates Out one was less social media, more toe to toe "**** you, you bastard", as a 50 something that was one I felt more able to contribute to. Fact is it took until about 2009 for our fanbase to start to fight back, and we spent the next 7/8 years doing it. Now I'm hopeful the guy we now have is honest, whether he is good enough time will tell, but for the first time in a decade I'm willing to give him a chance. Our experience would certainly suggest to me you fellas need to organise, and fight for your club, our support waited too long, and bates was playing much smaller numbers, the damage if you don't remove Xia will be potentially eye-watering. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam3773 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Hopefully England win the World Cup and suddenly huge football fan Larry Ellison decides to takeover his favourite English team and run it properly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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