Keinan Davis

[nick76]

1 hour ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Like you say his hold up play is very good. Personally I think it's the best I've seen of a Villa striker the last 30 years, maybe bar Heskey, but that's my opinion and I know it's a controversial one. 

He's finishing isn't quite there yet, and it probably will never be his best trait, but we all can name strikers that struggled getting the ball in the net for some time, then they had a bit of luck and with increased confidence they found the net more often. Lets take Harry Kane as an example. He was between 17-20 out on loan in league one and the championship, while playing regularly there he scored 14 goals in 53 matches over 3 seasons methinks. Now that's better than Davis have done even if Kane played some of it in league one, and Davis is a year older, but out of Davis's 30 outings for us he probably has most of them as a substitute (didn't find out the data). And Davis doesn't actually have to become as good as Harry Kane. If he becomes just half as good it's a success for us. Point being is that I think he might get there, but that's my personal opinion of it. 

 

My issue is generally he doesn’t get into positions to score, which added to the fact that when he does he looks like he will miss....to me he doesn’t look like he has potential in that area of his game, which is a massive problem.  Even hold up players score goals even if low amounts.  

The question is if he other part of the games is sufficient enough to compensate for lack of goals over his career.  I really don’t think so and would’ve been ok with letting him going out on loan or if a decent offer, being sold.  

Dean Smith seems to disagree and he’s the boss so in him I trust (plus I have no choice ).

[KenjiOgiwara]

1 minute ago, nick76 said:

My issue is generally he doesn’t get into positions to score

This I agree on and he must have been told to drop deep to bring our team up the pitch. If it's Keinan's own choice, then hopefully someone can tell him to stay in the box a bit more. 

[TRO]

9 hours ago, villa89 said:

I can see him being our seco d choice striker if wesley is injured which is less than ideal. We are really going to have to rely on goals from midfield this season I fear. 

Dean Smith Explained in his Pre-match Interview, that was the plan anyway......He said it happened last season and our style is still the same.

I have a feeling Keinan will emerge more this season, another season of development might make additions to his game.....Goals would be a welcome one.

I also think that we as a team may benefit from better refereeing in the coming season.....We was clattered quite a lot in the Championship.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

This I agree on and he must have been told to drop deep to bring our team up the pitch. If it's Keinan's own choice, then hopefully someone can tell him to stay in the box a bit more. 

Listening to Dean Smith's interview......I think he is being told to play the target man and bring midfielders in.

[DaveAV1]

Tammy missed an awful lot of chances last season, but we created lots and so he still scored lots. If we continue to create plenty of chances, which I think we will, our strikers, including Davis,  will score plenty. Add goals from other parts of the pitch and I think we’ll have a good season. 

[nick76]

Just now, DaveAV1 said:

Tammy missed an awful lot of chances last season, but we created lots and so he still scored lots. If we continue to create plenty of chances, which I think we will, our strikers, including Davis,  will score plenty. Add goals from other parts of the pitch and I think we’ll have a good season. 

That’s my worry! It’s a much harder league, we’ll have less time in the oppositions half, then it’ll be harder to create chances so the chances we do create we need to have a better goal scoring ratio.  I think we’ll be fine but after Wes, I do worry with our striker options and this places a large burden on other areas to score more, which is fine.

[carewjust4u]

26 minutes ago, nick76 said:

That’s my worry! It’s a much harder league, we’ll have less time in the oppositions half, then it’ll be harder to create chances so the chances we do create we need to have a better goal scoring ratio.  I think we’ll be fine but after Wes, I do worry with our striker options and this places a large burden on other areas to score more, which is fine.

I think you will find that the speed of the game will be alot quicker with quicker turn-over of possession, which will suit strikers such as Davis as more space to play/run into....same goes for Kodija (hence the gaffer's comments yesterday).

Edited August 9, 2019 by carewjust4u

[sir_gary_cahill]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Listening to Dean Smith's interview......I think he is being told to play the target man and bring midfielders in.

Told by who? 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Listening to Dean Smith's interview......I think he is being told to play the target man and bring midfielders in.

I don't think he's being told to do it. I think it's a conscious decision. 

We play with two advanced number 8's and wingers who like to cut inside. Last year we had Tammy playing up top, lethal in the box and not *awful* at holding the ball up and playing others in, but it wasn't exactly his speciality either. I think he had 2 assists all season.

Dean Smith didn't choose Tammy Abraham and I'm not convinced he would have either. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by dont_do_it_doug.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

My issue is generally he doesn’t get into positions to score, which added to the fact that when he does he looks like he will miss

Definitely the way I've seen it too. It's not that his finishing is terrible, it's that he often doesn't actually get into the position to have a chance to finish. If he can be coached to see the moves he needs to make, to learn where to go, not just for holding the ball up or playing in a team mate, but also to get on the end of potential chances to score, then he'll be an excellent player. Right now, he's like a recipe for a really good meal, but with just one key ingredient missing.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

13 minutes ago, blandy said:

Definitely the way I've seen it too. It's not that his finishing is terrible, it's that he often doesn't actually get into the position to have a chance to finish. If he can be coached to see the moves he needs to make, to learn where to go, not just for holding the ball up or playing in a team mate, but also to get on the end of potential chances to score, then he'll be an excellent player. Right now, he's like a recipe for a really good meal, but with just one key ingredient missing.

It's early days but I hope he watches Wesley and pays attention to his movement. Holds the ball up, one or two touches and he pops it off, then turns and fires himself into the box. 

If we see more of that from him the goals will come. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by dont_do_it_doug.

[blandy]

1 minute ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

It's really days but I hope he watches Wesley and pays attention to his movement. Holds the ball up, one or two touches and he pops it off, then turns and fires himself into the box. 

I don't want to spoil the mood, but from the limited amount I've seen, scoring and finishing doesn't look like a strong suit for Wesley either. Sorry.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

I don't want to spoil the mood, but from the limited amount I've seen, scoring and finishing doesn't look like a strong suit for Wesley either. Sorry.

Maybe, maybe not. 

Looking through the data and past clips of Wesley, he's better at those instinctual first time finishes. Bit like Gabby or Vassell. Give him too much time to think and he'll balls it up. 

Lots of Tammy's goals were tap ins. Even Wesley and Davis can't miss them. It's all down to how we play. The important thing is that we score goals, it doesn't really matter who scores them or how. 

[spineynorman]

I recall the header he scored at Barnsley the season before last where, for once, he was in the right position and finished it decisively. I can't claim to prove anything with that but, at the time, having seen him in a few matches and generally been impressed with his overall play, I wondered if he was the sort of forward who doesn't get into the right positions to score because he naturally drifts towards receiving the ball in the build up and also that, when given an opportunity, if he doesn't have to think about it, he is a decent finisher but if he does have to think about it, he can be indecisive and lacking a calm approach. I've always thought it must be possible to teach positional play and calmness under those situations but clearly some never learn so I don't know with him.

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Lots of Tammy's goals were tap ins. Even Wesley and Davis can't miss them. It's all down to how we play. The important thing is that we score goals, it doesn't really matter who scores them or how. 

They were, you're right. I think my comment is that he either through instinct or coaching got himself into those positions to tap in. Kienan less so. It was stark for example at Bolton away, when TA went off and KD came on. Lots of good play, and with better positioning, he could have had about 4 or 5 chances to finish, but he just didn't make the moves. It's not his fault, and he can and should get better, with coaching. You're right as well that as long as we score, it doesn't matter who - and also DS's style of play is one which is not all focused on getting the bal to a deadly striker to finish, it's much more about creating opportunities for whoever /anyone to score.

The difference in the Prem, as mentioned already is that defences are generally stronger and less prone to positional and individual errors, so we'll not pick up as many goals from gifts, as we got in the EFL.

[KevinRichardsonsMoustache]

I don’t feel particularly confident in him being so close to the first team tbh.

 

Then I consider that: 1. it was too long ago that stories like this were doing the rounds:

‘Manchester United transfer news: Aston Villa whizz kid Keinan Davis in Red Devils’ sights’

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/4738910/manchester-united-transfer-news-aston-villa-keinan-davis/

2. Terry played with him during his first decent season with us. And Dean sees the guy every day and mentioned that he is bossing team mates in those sessions. They have seen his development and I trust their judgement.

 

It’s a risk but we tend to underestimate the talent we have compared to the exotica that we could have. 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

Tammy missed an awful lot of chances last season, but we created lots and so he still scored lots. If we continue to create plenty of chances, which I think we will, our strikers, including Davis,  will score plenty. Add goals from other parts of the pitch and I think we’ll have a good season. 

You are right Dave.....He did enough work overall to avoid any negatives.....but he did go off the boil a tad towards the end of the season.

[nick76]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Definitely the way I've seen it too. It's not that his finishing is terrible, it's that he often doesn't actually get into the position to have a chance to finish. If he can be coached to see the moves he needs to make, to learn where to go, not just for holding the ball up or playing in a team mate, but also to get on the end of potential chances to score, then he'll be an excellent player. Right now, he's like a recipe for a really good meal, but with just one key ingredient missing.

The only problem with that is I believe that is less about coaching and more natural instinct.  The game is so fast at premier league level that natural instinct gets you into the right positions otherwise more players would be strikers.  For me there is a reason a scoring striker is that way, they just always seem to be in the right place.  You can coach certain plays so Davis knows where the ball is going to be in certain plays or set pieces but being in the right place at the right time is instinct for anything else....that's why goal scoring midfielders and strikers are at such a premium. 

For me, the use of Davis, if we have to, is as people have said....play up to Davis and midfielders run off him to score.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, sir_gary_cahill said:

Told by who? 

The manager.....If you listen to Dean he talks about goals coming from all over the team....by deduction, that suggests he is not relying on a number 9 for all his goals.

I would suspect he tells his number 9 that your main function is  deep lying and bring in the midfielders/wingers with your hold up play.

PS I think he could have got Maupay, if he really wanted to.

Edited August 9, 2019 by TRO

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, nick76 said:

The only problem with that is I believe that is less about coaching and more natural instinct.  The game is so fast at premier league level that natural instinct gets you into the right positions otherwise more players would be strikers.  For me there is a reason a scoring striker is that way, they just always seem to be in the right place.  You can coach certain plays so Davis knows where the ball is going to be in certain plays or set pieces but being in the right place at the right time is instinct for anything else....that's why goal scoring midfielders and strikers are at such a premium. 

For me, the use of Davis, if we have to, is as people have said....play up to Davis and midfielders run off him to score.

On the money, for me.