The Rémi Garde thread

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Nah. Luck only counts one way.

That's what Tim Sherwood said

[briny_ear]

7 hours ago, Mantis said:

But going by that logic he was unlucky that we had to face Watford and Everton teams that are in good form and full of confidence?

Yes. That's why I'm hoping he will have more good luck than bad. 

We definitely need it!

[briny_ear]

You may notice that when we meet teams playing well we get thumped and when we meet teams playing badly we get draws. 

[KHV]

We have had loads of luck since Garde took over, we should have had zero points but have managed to scrape two points from two games we should have had a hiding in

[Stevo985]

4 minutes ago, KHV said:

We have had loads of luck since Garde took over, we should have had zero points but have managed to scrape two points from two games we should have had a hiding in

And we've had bad luck too. 

We missed a load of chances against Watford, one in particular, that could have won us that game.

But like I said, luck only seems to count one way on VT, whichever way suits your current point of view.

[KHV]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

And we've had bad luck too. 

We missed a load of chances against Watford, one in particular, that could have won us that game.

But like I said, luck only seems to count one way on VT, whichever way suits your current point of view.

I think we had more good luck in the Man City and Southampton games than bad luck in the Watford game. City should have won 3 or 4 nil and Southampton should have been 4 up in the first 30 mins on the weekend. Had we had the beatings against City and Southampton we should have had things would be much more bleak

[Stevo985]

But if we'd lost both those games and beaten watford, with our so called luck evening out, we'd be a point better off, so isn't that worse luck?

It works both ways.

 

You make your own luck. At the end of the season if we go down then it won't be bad luck, it'll be because we haven't been good enough.

Similarly if we stay up it'll be because we deserve it.

Garde's been lucky and he's been unlucky. You can't base arguments around luck. We get what we deserve.

[TRO]

When you look back over a fair period of time.....it is clear that many players have not been good enough for our club, yet we have persevered with them.....past and present many players have been simply, not good enough....we have just accepted it.

this has created a very slow, but gradual decline that we have managed to sleep walk in to....our complacency has been oxygen to the flame.

The buying and selling of players is a major contributory factor IMO

it is a worry, when so many people involved in the club, coaches and fans.....seem to think some of these players are ok

we have slowly but surely lowered our expectations of what we will accept from our players.

If some of the younger fans had witnessed what some of the older fans had enjoyed, they would be beside themselves right now.....and equally know where I am coming from.

Particularly on the defensive side of our game (and I am not only referring to the back 4 who are poor) but the whole team.

we as fans are desperate for a change in fortunes and the raising of the quality of play.

we all want to talk things up, but some of the things I see ....really do take the biscuit.

Edited December 8, 2015 by TRO

[villa89]

34 minutes ago, TRO said:

When you look back over a fair period of time.....it is clear that many players have not been good enough for our club, yet we have persevered with them.....past and present many players have been simply, not good enough....we have just accepted it.

Bizarrely, we gave most of them new contracts too. Hutton, Gabby, Clark, Baker, Westwood, all spring to mind.  

[Nigel]

Thats not really that surprising is it, with what happened last summer!

[markavfc40]

55 minutes ago, TRO said:

it is a worry, when so many people involved in the club, coaches and fans.....seem to think some of these players are ok

we have slowly but surely lowered our expectations of what we will accept from our players. ........we all want to talk things up, but some of the things I see really do take the biscuit.

You made some good points TRO. I think we have massively lowered our expectations and as someone who trumpeted the fact that as fans we owe it to the club to never do so I realised I have been as big a culprit as anyone.

It is human nature I guess to try to cling to any positives. To try to look for the best attributes in all the players and to play down any faults. The table doesn't lie though does it. The two seasons prior to this one we clung to our top league status by averaging a point a game. We had less than a handful of good players but the vast majority of them were not up to competing in the top flight for anything other than relegation fodder. This season we lost all the better players from the previous season and in the main replaced them with unproven, in this league, potential. Now we find ourselves after 15 games averaging 0.4 points a game. I’d love to say otherwise but bottom line is that this is a really poor squad of players and arguably the worst we have ever had.

I look back now and I kidded myself before the season and through the first couple of months. I thought it was just a case of so many new players needing time to settle. Made excuses for some appalling team performances and individual errors and put it down to them needing to settle and gel together.

A part of me still thinks that some of them may come good and consistently perform to a reasonable level. Even if they do though it will clearly be too late.

I guess this post probably isn’t directly related to the Remi Garde thread but I do think unless we show zero signs of improvement that he can’t really be judged based on this squad of players as they are simply so poor overall. It is why I also have some sympathy still for his predecessor as it seems the vast majority of the signings were not his choice and was it really wise to task an inexperienced manager with moulding so many new and unproven players into an existing poor squad of players.

We really haven’t given a manager a fair chance since the days of Houllier in terms of what we have asked them to work with. McLeish lost his best players and was given half what the club received in fees and wages to replace them. Lambert was given relatively little money to spend and never backed with being able to pay decent wages. Sherwood finished last season with a squad of players that had come 17^th, lost all his best players and had their replacements decided by a committee who spent little over what we received in fees whilst reducing the wage bill.

Garde has simply inherited the mess left by all of the above and now has an almost impossible to task to lift this club. I’d love to dress it up differently but those are the bare facts for me.

Edited December 8, 2015 by markavfc40

[Demitri_C]

No idea why Baker and clark were given new deals stupid and idiotic. But saying that saved lerner spending more money

[TRO]

1 hour ago, villa89 said:

Bizarrely, we gave most of them new contracts too. Hutton, Gabby, Clark, Baker, Westwood, all spring to mind.  

Don't start me off....You just couldn't write the script.

We have senior members of the Villa Park staff who are happily taking their lucrative salaries and simply see no way out.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

You made some good points TRO. I think we have massively lowered our expectations and as someone who trumpeted the fact that as fans we owe it to the club to never do so I realised I have been as big a culprit as anyone.

It is human nature I guess to try to cling to any positives. To try to look for the best attributes in all the players and to play down any faults. The table doesn't lie though does it. The two seasons prior to this one we clung to our top league status by averaging a point a game. We had less than a handful of good players but the vast majority of them were not up to competing in the top flight for anything other than relegation fodder. This season we lost all the better players from the previous season and in the main replaced them with unproven, in this league, potential. Now we find ourselves after 15 games averaging 0.4 points a game. I’d love to say otherwise but bottom line is that this is a really poor squad of players and arguably the worst we have ever had.

I look back now and I kidded myself before the season and through the first couple of months. I thought it was just a case of so many new players needing time to settle. Made excuses for some appalling team performances and individual errors and put it down to them needing to settle and gel together.

A part of me still thinks that some of them may come good and consistently perform to a reasonable level. Even if they do though it will clearly be too late.

I guess this post probably isn’t directly related to the Remi Garde thread but I do think unless we show zero signs of improvement that he can’t really be judged based on this squad of players as they are simply so poor overall. It is why I also have some sympathy still for his predecessor as it seems the vast majority of the signings were not his choice and was it really wise to task an inexperienced manager with moulding so many new and unproven players into an existing poor squad of players.

We really haven’t given a manager a fair chance since the days of Houllier in terms of what we have asked them to work with. McLeish lost his best players and was given half what the club received in fees and wages to replace them. Lambert was given relatively little money to spend and never backed with being able to pay decent wages. Sherwood finished last season with a squad of players that had come 17^th, lost all his best players and had their replacements decided by a committee who spent little over what we received in fees whilst reducing the wage bill.

Garde has simply inherited the mess left by all of the above and now has an almost impossible to task to lift this club. I’d love to dress it up differently but those are the bare facts for me.

All the managers have been scapegoats.....Even Tim Sherwood was brought in to keep us up with Max manager bounce.

I am not having a pop at any individual manager, its a thankless job....I am just merely pointing out the gradual acceptance of poor play.

I understand your position Mark and I would be liar if I said I have not done the same.

I have to say if I am being honest with myself, this situation we find ourselves in has not just arrived, its being drifting for a long time.

I like you, have tried to kid myself that these people at B6 know more than me, so they must know what they are doing.....must they.

There are aspects of a football club/Football team, I wouldn't have a clue i.e fitness, medical side etc .....But watching how a football team should perform on a matchday, well I might have an idea on that much like you, much like many discerning posters on here.....I have been watching it for over 50 years, so I have either wasted my money or have an inkling.

Matt Kendrick made an interesting point on Monday Night in the B/Mail where he said " how the powerbrokers have wasted a position of strength with bad decision after bad decision"

I have arrived at a point where i am scared ,when we are linked with a player, I should be excited, I am scared stiff that we are landing the club in yet more mess.

Under Ron Saunders the Benteke signing would have been the bad one and all the rest really good ones......We now get one right in about 40.

Matt goes on to say " perversely, risking it all on erroneous managerial appointments, questionable staff recruitment and sub-standard player signings off the pitch has now left them with an increasing need to take risks on the field" He was referring to his article " Go For Broke".

just about everyone and his grandmother know we had a low grade squad....for sure the odd reverse pass or a bit of interplay or a cameo of improvisation reminds us of the skill they have.....But all the essentials for staying in this division, the ugly stuff .....squeezing, getting your foot in, letting them know you are there, putting your body on the line, scrapping, when was the last time we seen ones of ours having a row with the opposition, not saying I want to see that all the time, but one in a while to fire the passion, wouldn't go amiss.

I see certain players create an error or execute a poor shot and they show no remorse or disappointment, its just like thats what your getting like it or lump it, now I am not saying they feel like that, but that the impression I get.

I don't like this team at all ( I know the position and the way we are playing lends it to that) but I think it has a bad smell about it.

We have 3 players who have recently come from a top of the table team surrounded by positivity and winners.....something is really weird about this lot and our set up.

I have watched some players and teams at Villa Park, started in 1968 with my Dad watching the likes of Peter McParland and Nigel Simms......This team for me is one of the most predictable teams for conceding goals, whether we are 1 up/1 down it makes little difference and this has been with us for so long now under 3 different managers.....from one week to another with different permutations of players the same undercurrent is prevalent.....I have seen very few Villa teams too without fight, we seem to have one.One that has no idea whatsoever of how to win a game.

rant over sorry.

Ps  The pundits are not as close to all this as we are, but I think they are slowly getting the message too

UTV

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

No idea why Baker and clark were given new deals stupid and idiotic. But saying that saved lerner spending more money

No, what would be 'stupid and idiotic' is letting players who are worth money leave on free transfers. 

[Craigy1874]

I said it all along.

When we were replacing Sherwood, we should have went for Dave Bassett.

[jim]

10 minutes ago, Craigy1874 said:

I said it all along.

When we were replacing Sherwood, we should have went for Dave Bassett.

Would have preferred Mike tbh.

[avfc1982am]

8 hours ago, TRO said:

All the managers have been scapegoats.....Even Tim Sherwood was brought in to keep us up with Max manager bounce.

I am not having a pop at any individual manager, its a thankless job....I am just merely pointing out the gradual acceptance of poor play.

I understand your position Mark and I would be liar if I said I have not done the same.

I have to say if I am being honest with myself, this situation we find ourselves in has not just arrived, its being drifting for a long time.

I like you, have tried to kid myself that these people at B6 know more than me, so they must know what they are doing.....must they.

There are aspects of a football club/Football team, I wouldn't have a clue i.e fitness, medical side etc .....But watching how a football team should perform on a matchday, well I might have an idea on that much like you, much like many discerning posters on here.....I have been watching it for over 50 years, so I have either wasted my money or have an inkling.

Matt Kendrick made an interesting point on Monday Night in the B/Mail where he said " how the powerbrokers have wasted a position of strength with bad decision after bad decision"

I have arrived at a point where i am scared ,when we are linked with a player, I should be excited, I am scared stiff that we are landing the club in yet more mess.

Under Ron Saunders the Benteke signing would have been the bad one and all the rest really good ones......We now get one right in about 40.

Matt goes on to say " perversely, risking it all on erroneous managerial appointments, questionable staff recruitment and sub-standard player signings off the pitch has now left them with an increasing need to take risks on the field" He was referring to his article " Go For Broke".

just about everyone and his grandmother know we had a low grade squad....for sure the odd reverse pass or a bit of interplay or a cameo of improvisation reminds us of the skill they have.....But all the essentials for staying in this division, the ugly stuff .....squeezing, getting your foot in, letting them know you are there, putting your body on the line, scrapping, when was the last time we seen ones of ours having a row with the opposition, not saying I want to see that all the time, but one in a while to fire the passion, wouldn't go amiss.

I see certain players create an error or execute a poor shot and they show no remorse or disappointment, its just like thats what your getting like it or lump it, now I am not saying they feel like that, but that the impression I get.

I don't like this team at all ( I know the position and the way we are playing lends it to that) but I think it has a bad smell about it.

We have 3 players who have recently come from a top of the table team surrounded by positivity and winners.....something is really weird about this lot and our set up.

I have watched some players and teams at Villa Park, started in 1968 with my Dad watching the likes of Peter McParland and Nigel Simms......This team for me is one of the most predictable teams for conceding goals, whether we are 1 up/1 down it makes little difference and this has been with us for so long now under 3 different managers.....from one week to another with different permutations of players the same undercurrent is prevalent.....I have seen very few Villa teams too without fight, we seem to have one.One that has no idea whatsoever of how to win a game.

rant over sorry.

Ps  The pundits are not as close to all this as we are, but I think they are slowly getting the message too

UTV

•  

TRO I agree with many of the points you and Mark both raise in the last couple of posts and generally on a regular basis but I also do think it's a little more intricate than some of what you have mentioned.

Yes we cut costs ridiculously so after the MON era, far to much for us to transition easy into a more sustainable way of operating for the first 2-3 years imo. However what has been continual in all this time which has held us back the most has been a lack of direction from management to the personnel/players and their ability to manifest their ideology through the players.

Your both right in that we have as fans lowered our expectations but this has only come about due to the piss poor decisions our last couple of managers have made. What boggles me most of all regarding both Paul Lambert and Tim Sherwood is that both of them never truly had conviction in their actions in the way they wanted us to play. Both at certain points had us playing some cracking football going forward and then crapped it when it didn't work, turning us into a frightened team scared of forward movement. Instead becoming more defensive, tentative in possession, lacking movement in the right areas and erratic. It's easy to apportion blame to the players for being crap, and rightly so in some instances, but I personally think the managers have used the lack of investment into the team as an excuse for their own shortfalls in structuring the team correctly. 

Since MON left we have completely lost our identity as a club in the manner we play. We used to be a fast counter attacking team who utilised width and pace. We then went from Houlliers possession based game to Mcleish's defensive game. From Lambert's try and bore everyone game to Sherwood's suck it and see game. It's been a bloody rollercoaster! And if you'd been a player under any of them I'm sure you would have been confused also.

Admittedly some of our players are not up to the standard but the truth is if you look through the squad I would believe most are the players which have been here the longest? Possibly due to age, never any good or not being moved on at the right time in some cases but what about not being used correctly? Not having the manager to help them perform to their highest levels, whether by rod of iron or quality coaching and instructions? General good management.

For what it is also worth I think we have more than enough quality in the players we have currently to not be in this situation. Unfortunately Sherwoods bottle went after the Leicester game and instead of taking the blame and letting the players of the hook for what were terrible subs tactically, he started to question them publically and isolate himself from reality.  In turn shattering their confidence, hence the domino effect. I would bet my bottom dollar that Richards, Ayew, Gana, Sanchez, Gil, Grealish, Adama, Amavi, Okore, Veretout, or even possibly Sinclair, Clark, Hutton Bacuna, Westwood have no shortages of suitors from the Premier League should/when we go down.

As for Remi I really think we have a sensible manager in control finally who could given time sort out the drivel on the pitch, I just think the turn around will come to late but I do hope I'm wrong as we all do.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2015 by avfc1982am

[Vive_La_Villa]

Arsenal have a lot of injuries so it's a better time to play them.

We desperately need Richards back though. I also think we Should bring Cissoko back from Porto if possible. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

I still don't think we have a chance of escaping relegation by playing a possession game.

we need an ugly PULIS approach to survive.