New manager

[ozvillafan]

Spot on. Just look at West Ham the job Fat Sam did and then their decision to replace him. Which is exactly what Lerner should have done with O'Neill 12 months before his departure.

Do you really think there'd be even a 1% chance he'd be brave enough to do this and smart enough to pick someone who could improve on O'Neill? I don't. He'd most likely have started the downward spiral of Houllier-McLeish-Lambert-Sherwood a year earlier. 

Possibly.

But, then, removing Fat Sam was planned and happened at the end of the last season. By comparison, O'Neill walked out 5 days before the start of the season.

Comparing apples with oranges here.

[Rob182]

I swear, I do not type out as badly as it reads...this shite latest forum version messes words up all over the place.

It did the same to me Neil. I had this thing where I would delete a word, but the word was still on the screen even though it had been deleted... So you can't really tell what you're posting.

Download tapatalk. I did last night, after persisting with the new forum for too long.

Anyway... Any news on Tactics Remi?

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I swear, I do not type out as badly as it reads...this shite latest forum version messes words up all over the place.

It did the same to me Neil. I had this thing where I would delete a word, but the word was still on the screen even though it had been deleted... So you can't really tell what you're posting.

Download tapatalk. I did last night, after persisting with the new forum for too long.

Anyway... Any news on Tactics Remi?

Yeah, I have the same problem on mobile. Worse in fact, I use swype and when I want to change a word it has incorrectly auto corrected by pressing the backspace it will add in a word randomly from my list! If I accidentally hit quote on a post, or change my mind about replying, I have to delete the entire post manually before I can respond to anything else. It's completely barmy, broken. Now on Tapatalk too, have lost tons of functionality including avatars, but at least it's useable.

Anyway, is 7.45am so no news yet!

[Chap of Steel]

It's all gone a bit quiet on the manager links atm, but I hope we don't get Nigel Pearson. Considering managers sacked by Leicester and Sunderland (Poyet, although he's joined AEK Athens) is not good practice for Villa IMO.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

It's all gone a bit quiet on the manager links atm, but I hope we don't get Nigel Pearson. Considering managers sacked by Leicester and Sunderland (Poyet, although he's joined AEK Athens) is not good practice for Villa IMO.

I agree. Though there is no evidence we have considered either. Garde seems nailed on to me.

Today please Villa, bring them in tomorrow afternoon for a get together, they will have Thursday to Monday to get shit together.

[Neil]

 

 

I feel like the discussion has been twisted and I'm now having to defend an opinion that managers coming in from abroad are predisposed to succeed when I've not suggested anything of the sort. Of course there are failures, as there will be in any high level profession.

 

The ONLY question that should matter to us is whether he is a forward thinking, highly motivated, progressive football manager and whether he possesses the skills to potentially turn our fortunes around. Everything else, including experience, is basically irrelevant.

 

 

You know what the stupid thing is, if you take the time to read carefully... we actually **** agree on the principals lol.  Said it a few times that I don't think experience in the prem is the deciding factor, and went on to say of the managers available someone who is good in another league may be our best option.

My point is bbeing a good manager in another league does not necessarily convert into being a good manager in the prem, against prem opponents.  There are current and old examples of this failure to adapt, and it could very well be the case with Remi.

Bu it ccould be the case that his good work continues, that's the risk we take.  And once more, on current availability, this is probably the best gamble for avfc to take.

However, to round off...I'd take a proven mid table prem manager over a top 4 foreign league manager anytime.  The biggest difference in the prem, is the teams outside the top 4 can actually beat anyone on their day.  It's pretty exclusive in the prem that teams 3rd to 20th still have a high income and the ability to compete.

[Demitri_C]

ideally we want new man in for spurs, dont fancy k-mac for this one. ideally we dont want managers first game at home to city where we will get destroyed

[Rob182]

I like a gamble, so I'd prefer a top 4 foreign manager over a mid-table Premier League manager.

I'll no doubt be proved wrong by some smart-arse when Garde comes in and we finish 17th by the skin of our teeth, but I'm not sure I really believe this whole 'Premier League experience' being so vital.

Yes, foreign managers have come into the league and done poorly before, but so have managers who have managed in the Prem. The constant seems to be that when a foreign manager fails, it's "ooo you can't bring in a manager with no Prem Experience", and then when a manager with Prem Experience fails, it's always 'something else' at fault: lack of funds/ injuries/ lost the dressing room/ blah blah blah.

Football is about picking up points. Now, even though the Premier League is generally faster than other leagues, it doesn't mean that foreign managers are blind to it. If they've watched 5 Premier League games then surely they can see the difference?

I don't know. Maybe having experience here is an added bonus, but I just don't think it's the be all and end all. If you're a good rounded manager with sustainable good ideas, you'll generally do well with the resources you have available. In my opinion.

[TrentVilla]

 

Spot on. Just look at West Ham the job Fat Sam did and then their decision to replace him. Which is exactly what Lerner should have done with O'Neill 12 months before his departure.

Do you really think there'd be even a 1% chance he'd be brave enough to do this and smart enough to pick someone who could improve on O'Neill? I don't. He'd most likely have started the downward spiral of Houllier-McLeish-Lambert-Sherwood a year earlier. 

No I don't obviously because he wasn't brave/smart enough to do it at the time. That doesn't though detract from the fact it would have been the right thing to do or the point being made more generally. It isn't being wise after the event either I wanted him to get rid of O'Neill 12 months before he went because it was obvious we couldn't progress any further under O'Neill.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

 

 

I feel like the discussion has been twisted and I'm now having to defend an opinion that managers coming in from abroad are predisposed to succeed when I've not suggested anything of the sort. Of course there are failures, as there will be in any high level profession.

 

The ONLY question that should matter to us is whether he is a forward thinking, highly motivated, progressive football manager and whether he possesses the skills to potentially turn our fortunes around. Everything else, including experience, is basically irrelevant.

 

 

You know what the stupid thing is, if you take the time to read carefully... we actually **** agree on the principals lol.  Said it a few times that I don't think experience in the prem is the deciding factor, and went on to say of the managers available someone who is good in another league may be our best option.

My point is bbeing a good manager in another league does not necessarily convert into being a good manager in the prem, against prem opponents.  There are current and old examples of this failure to adapt, and it could very well be the case with Remi.

Bu it ccould be the case that his good work continues, that's the risk we take.  And once more, on current availability, this is probably the best gamble for avfc to take.

However, to round off...I'd take a proven mid table prem manager over a top 4 foreign league manager anytime.  The biggest difference in the prem, is the teams outside the top 4 can actually beat anyone on their day.  It's pretty exclusive in the prem that teams 3rd to 20th still have a high income and the ability to compete.

I think we generally do agree, the place in which we fundamentally disagree is that "premier league experience" make the blindest bit of difference to actual ability. Management experience yes, though above a high enough level where that experience is gained is utterly irrelevant. He has managed players much better than anything we have.

League position is not a reflection on a managers ability either. YOU may feel more comfortable if we went for David Moyes, that does not make David Moyes the better option, know what I'm getting at?

[sharkyvilla]

I've got a feeling in my bones today is the day

[TrentVilla]

 

In regards the debate (nice to see a friendly one) about PL experience v foreign promise I guess it just comes down to known quantities.

If you get Fat Sam you know what you are getting. It's unlikely you will go down and you won't challenge for anything and you certainly won't see the grass wear out in the middle of your pitch.

If you go abroad you are to varying degrees entering the unknown. It's the managerial lucky dip, you might get a Pochettino who raises you above your station and previous glass ceiling. Or you might get a Pepe Mel or Egil Olsen.

It is more than fair to say overseas leagues are not as competitive and levels of performance overseas can be misleading about a managers ability even if they aren't skills, experience and personalities aren't always transferable from league to league.

Someone like Garde represents a risk, it could fail horribly or it could be hugely rewarding in a way an appointment like Fat Sam wouldn't be.

No real way of knowing if you get a present or shit on your hand, you just have to stick your hand in the pot and pull it out and see what you got.

Where we are right now the pragmatic me is screaming out for Moyes (I did want Fat Sam) but the gambling me just can't help but be excited that Garde might be a diamond rather than a turd.

Time will tell I suspect because I think he is on his way. There is a huge amount riding on it lets just hope he is more Wenger than Tigana.

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2015 by TrentVilla

[markavfc40]

 

Spot on. Just look at West Ham the job Fat Sam did and then their decision to replace him. Which is exactly what Lerner should have done with O'Neill 12 months before his departure.

Do you really think there'd be even a 1% chance he'd be brave enough to do this and smart enough to pick someone who could improve on O'Neill? I don't. He'd most likely have started the downward spiral of Houllier-McLeish-Lambert-Sherwood a year earlier. 

No I don't obviously because he wasn't brave/smart enough to do it at the time. That doesn't though detract from the fact it would have been the right thing to do or the point being made more generally. It isn't being wise after the event either I wanted him to get rid of O'Neill 12 months before he went because it was obvious we couldn't progress any further under O'Neill.

 

This is clearly going over old ground but I am not sure there was more progression left to be made due to the finances and the fact that Man City by 2009 were well on their way to breaking into the Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool top 4 monopoly by spending silly money.

No one can dispute that O’Neil wasted a fair amount of money. By the same token though he did inherit a team that had finished 16^th and needed rebuilding, certainly in midfield and up top. Over his four years in charge we had a net spend of 70 mill. In term so of wages in his final three seasons we had the 8^th/8^th and 6^th highest in the league. For as much as we can debate the merits of individual signings purely on a what was spent basis both in fees and wages we never spent enough to break into the top 4. It would have taken an exceptional manager to break into that long established top four and also at the same time out do a quickly emerging Man City.

Had another manager of come in 2009 could he have the next season bettered a 6^th place finish, a record number of Prem points for us, a cup final in one cup and a semi final in another? As I say it would have taken an exceptional manager to have done so.

I know many disagree but I look back on O’Neills time and where we were when he arrived, what he had to spend and who we were competing with, and what they were spending, and think we did about par for the course and overall the job he did was ok. The fact that having the 6^th highest wage bill in the league was it turns out living beyond our means suggests to me the owner gambled on us over achieving. The frightening thing is though that it took him another year or so to start to remedy that situation as by the end of 2010/11 the wage bill was at the highest point it had ever been due to the signings of Ireland, Bent and Makoun and in the case of Ireland and Bent putting them on silly money.

That is all in the past though isn't it and I doubt very much under Lerner at least we will see ourselves just outside the top 4 again debating who we need in charge to kick on. The debate is now very much about who is the right man to get us out of a big hole and get us up to 17^th , at least, come May 15^th 2016.

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2015 by markavfc40

[TrentVilla]

 

Spot on. Just look at West Ham the job Fat Sam did and then their decision to replace him. Which is exactly what Lerner should have done with O'Neill 12 months before his departure.

Do you really think there'd be even a 1% chance he'd be brave enough to do this and smart enough to pick someone who could improve on O'Neill? I don't. He'd most likely have started the downward spiral of Houllier-McLeish-Lambert-Sherwood a year earlier. 

No I don't obviously because he wasn't brave/smart enough to do it at the time. That doesn't though detract from the fact it would have been the right thing to do or the point being made more generally. It isn't being wise after the event either I wanted him to get rid of O'Neill 12 months before he went because it was obvious we couldn't progress any further under O'Neill.

 

This is clearly going over old ground but I am not sure there was more progression left to be made due to the finances and the fact that Man City by 2009 were well on their way to breaking into the Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool top 4 monopoly by spending silly money.

 

No one can dispute that O’Neil wasted a fair amount of money. By the same token though he did inherit a team that had finished 16^th and needed rebuilding, certainly in midfield and up top. Over his four years in charge we had a net spend of 70 mill. In term so of wages in his final three seasons we had the 8^th/8^th and 6^th highest in the league. For as much as we can debate the merits of individual signings purely on a what was spent basis both in fees and wages we never spent enough to break into the top 4. It would have taken an exceptional manager to break into that long established top four and also at the same time out do a quickly emerging Man City.

 

Had another manger of come in 2009 could he have the next season bettered a 6^th place finish, a record number of Prem points for us, a cup final in one cup and a semi final in another? As I say it would have taken an exceptional manager to have done so.

 

I know many disagree but I look back on O’Neills time and where we were when he arrived, what he had to spend and who we were competing with, and what they were spending, and think we did about par for the course and overall the job he did was ok. The fact that having the 6^th highest wage bill in the league was it turns out living beyond our means suggests to me the owner gambled on us over achieving. The frightening thing is though that it took him another year or so to start to remedy that situation as by the end of 2010/11 the wage bill was at the highest point it had ever been due to the signings of Ireland, Bent and Makoun and in the case of Ireland and Bent putting them on silly money.

 

That is all in the past though isn't it and I doubt very much under Lerner at least we will see ourselves just outside the top 4 again debating who we need in charge to kick on. The debate is now very much about who is the right man to get us out of a big hole and get us up to 17^th , at least, come May 15^th 2016.

 

 

 

One for another day, another thread or even better a pint at a game one day mate.

As you say right now it's about what happens in our immediate future, bleak though it may be.

[Thevillanofoz]

Galtier would be the fashionable choice.

he s certainly cut of the right cloth

[BG_Villa_Fan]

 

 

This is clearly going over old ground but I am not sure there was more progression left to be made due to the finances and the fact that Man City by 2009 were well on their way to breaking into the Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool top 4 monopoly by spending silly money.

 

No one can dispute that O’Neil wasted a fair amount of money. By the same token though he did inherit a team that had finished 16^th and needed rebuilding, certainly in midfield and up top. Over his four years in charge we had a net spend of 70 mill. In term so of wages in his final three seasons we had the 8^th/8^th and 6^th highest in the league. For as much as we can debate the merits of individual signings purely on a what was spent basis both in fees and wages we never spent enough to break into the top 4. It would have taken an exceptional manager to break into that long established top four and also at the same time out do a quickly emerging Man City.

 

Had another manger of come in 2009 could he have the next season bettered a 6^th place finish, a record number of Prem points for us, a cup final in one cup and a semi final in another? As I say it would have taken an exceptional manager to have done so.

 

I know many disagree but I look back on O’Neills time and where we were when he arrived, what he had to spend and who we were competing with, and what they were spending, and think we did about par for the course and overall the job he did was ok. The fact that having the 6^th highest wage bill in the league was it turns out living beyond our means suggests to me the owner gambled on us over achieving. The frightening thing is though that it took him another year or so to start to remedy that situation as by the end of 2010/11 the wage bill was at the highest point it had ever been due to the signings of Ireland, Bent and Makoun and in the case of Ireland and Bent putting them on silly money.

 

That is all in the past though isn't it and I doubt very much under Lerner at least we will see ourselves just outside the top 4 again debating who we need in charge to kick on. The debate is now very much about who is the right man to get us out of a big hole and get us up to 17^th , at least, come May 15^th 2016.

Great post Mark, totally agree with everything you've said. 

Just adding that even if we had somehow managed to get top 4 in one of the seasons, it would very likely have been a one-off with the megabucks City threw at it. Also, Lerner didn't become a terrible decision-maker in 2011 - he's been just as bad from the begining, we just didn't know it at the time. 

[Rob182]

I too initially wanted Moyes, Trent. He successfully managed an Everton team in strangely similar situations to our own (battled relegation, ownership concerns, lack of serious investment, similar sized team in recent years, having best players poached by the bigger clubs etc), so he was my initial favourite to keep us in the league, stabilise us and give us the mid-table security we've craved for too long.

However... When Remi Garde was mentioned as a serious possibility, I put my thoughts of Moyes on the shelf! Full of hope, excitement and that niggling feeling of dread that we might be stepping into the unknown, with one of the most promising, shiny new managers in Europe.

It almost takes me back to when Houllier was in charge. Not that he was 'hot property' at the time, but that we were hoping for a successful continental style (well, some of us were, anyway).

Unlike Houllier's tenure though, this time around, we undoubtedly have the players capable of playing the type of football that a new-Pochettino or Bilic would want. Which makes me feel that it's more of a calculated gamble, especially considering Garde's supposed ability with youth, not to mention the French/English connection.

It's a gamble. That much is for sure. But I can't help but get excited about someone kick starting the va-va-voom Villa revolution, instead of us turning into another Sunderland or WBA, hoping for 40 points each year.

[Wainy316]

Garde to be announced today, watch from the stands then deliver a rousing half time team talk to win us the game?

[TrentVilla]

 

 

This is clearly going over old ground but I am not sure there was more progression left to be made due to the finances and the fact that Man City by 2009 were well on their way to breaking into the Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool top 4 monopoly by spending silly money.

 

No one can dispute that O’Neil wasted a fair amount of money. By the same token though he did inherit a team that had finished 16^th and needed rebuilding, certainly in midfield and up top. Over his four years in charge we had a net spend of 70 mill. In term so of wages in his final three seasons we had the 8^th/8^th and 6^th highest in the league. For as much as we can debate the merits of individual signings purely on a what was spent basis both in fees and wages we never spent enough to break into the top 4. It would have taken an exceptional manager to break into that long established top four and also at the same time out do a quickly emerging Man City.

 

Had another manger of come in 2009 could he have the next season bettered a 6^th place finish, a record number of Prem points for us, a cup final in one cup and a semi final in another? As I say it would have taken an exceptional manager to have done so.

 

I know many disagree but I look back on O’Neills time and where we were when he arrived, what he had to spend and who we were competing with, and what they were spending, and think we did about par for the course and overall the job he did was ok. The fact that having the 6^th highest wage bill in the league was it turns out living beyond our means suggests to me the owner gambled on us over achieving. The frightening thing is though that it took him another year or so to start to remedy that situation as by the end of 2010/11 the wage bill was at the highest point it had ever been due to the signings of Ireland, Bent and Makoun and in the case of Ireland and Bent putting them on silly money.

 

That is all in the past though isn't it and I doubt very much under Lerner at least we will see ourselves just outside the top 4 again debating who we need in charge to kick on. The debate is now very much about who is the right man to get us out of a big hole and get us up to 17^th , at least, come May 15^th 2016.

Great post Mark, totally agree with everything you've said. 

Just adding that even if we had somehow managed to get top 4 in one of the seasons, it would very likely have been a one-off with the meigabucks City threw at it. Also, Lerner didn't become a terrible decision-maker in 2011 - he's been just as bad from the begining, we just didn't know it at the time. 

Progress doesn't just have to be defined by achieving or sustaining CL football though and  I agree it would have been exceptionally difficult for anyone to take us on to those things. But someone could have progressed the club, the scouting, the player recruitment so we didn't continue spunking obscene amounts of cash on average English players I an approach that was never going to be sustainable. But anyway that's the past.

Edited October 28, 2015 by TrentVilla

[Neil]

 

In regards the debate (nice to see a friendly one) about PL experience v foreign promise I guess it just comes down to known quantities.

If you get Fat Sam you know what you are getting. It's unlikely you will go down and you won't challenge for anything and you certainly won't see the grass wear out in the middle of your pitch.

If you go abroad you are to varying degrees entering the unknown. It's the managerial lucky dip, you might get a Pochettino who raises you above your station and previous glass ceiling. Or you might get a Pepe Mel or Egil Olsen.

It is more than fair to say overseas leagues are not as competitive and levels of performance overseas can be misleading about a managers ability even if they aren't skills, experience and personalities aren't always transferable from league to league.

Someone like Garde represents a risk, it could fail horribly or it could be hugely rewarding in a way an appointment like Fat Sam wouldn't be.

No real way of knowing if you get a present or shit on your hand, you just have to stick your hand in the pot and pull it out and see what you got.

Where we are right now the pragmatic me is screaming out for Moyes (I did want Fat Sam) but the gambling me just can't help but be excited that Garde might be a diamond rather than a turd.

Time will tell I suspect because I think he is on his way. There is a huge amount riding on it lets just hope he is more Wenger than Tigana.

 

 

 

All of this and more!

So yes, premier league experience isn't the be all and end all but it's certainly the best barometer to know what you're getting and how they might perform in our league.

There are so many subtle differences, climate that changes pace and agression...the home principles, diving being more prevalent (it's becoming more in the prem, but if there was a dive a min in our league you can say there would be 3-4 in any other) the gap in resources between the top and bottom end of the league.  Managers all have their own belief, their own system...and these systems always come with the managers and they will generally try to adapt the same system that worked in another league over here.

This could be a system of a light weight tricky midfield, that is well protected in other leagues where a hard challenge is less likely.  Also it could be a system that works well because of it's flare that gulfs the bottom 16 teams, but when you bring that system over here there are 16 teams who will just kick you off the park with that same system.  The system includes the type of players you favor, the formation and by and large they will bring that same formation and selection that may or may not cut it over here.

So we talked about a few managers, fat sam and david moyes.  David Moyes is a bit of a conundrum for me, because he was too long at Everton as his only club to know if he's still got it...fat sam well you know what he's about and he's used to keeping teams up.  He sets them up so they're hard to beat, and will get a few points off teams around you who're also struggling.  Let us not forget what we are, and where we are...a relegation form / relegation placed team struggling at the bottom of our league.  I would absolutely take Fat sam now just to save us, because our biggest hope is surviving this league...nothing more right now!

You mention he achieved with better players than ours, well guess what...we don't have better players than ours.  This guy has to shape our team for survival in the premiership, and his style / system that worked over in the French league may...or may not cut that.  To this end, I would probably prefer fat sam...just to save us.  It might be short sighted, but failure to survive this season is looking at a long term problem...

Let me put another name to you, Michael Laudrup.  This guy, I know he can cut it in the prem...and I would take him 10x over Remi purely based on the fact he's a good manager who has proven his ideas and systems apply to winning in our league.

Trent it right, ones ability in another league does not necessarily cross over to the premier league.  It's just as much a different league now as it was 10 years ago.