Gun violence in the USA

[Follyfoot]

1 hour ago, TheAuthority said:

I don't understand the desire to kill sentient beings.

I somewhat see how the challenge of tracking something could be exciting; chasing them in a 'hide and seek' sort of way. Especially as wild animals are creatures of which our understanding is far removed;

But very much like De Niro at the end of 'The Deer Hunter' (terrible example I know) why destroy what you've enjoyed tracking and observing? (probably terrifying it beyond belief in all honesty.)

For me the idea to destroy an animal is a sick perversion.  They can't fight back against a bullet. WooHoo big man, go human development. Love to see your brother in laws wrestle a bear or a tiger.

Tell me I'm soppy.

Slightly off topic I’ve always been fascinated with those blokes that fight bears In those big suits. It must be an insane rush and I would love to have a go at it just to feel the pure strength and aggression of such a wonderful creature And live to tell the tale

[TheAuthority]

11 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

Slightly off topic I’ve always been fascinated with those blokes that fight bears In those big suits. It must be an insane rush and I would love to have a go at it just to feel the pure strength and aggression of such a wonderful creature And live to tell the tale

As I tried to eschew before: Humans are intelligent enough to understand animals, their place in the food chain, and ultimately their  place within the larger ecosystem - our whole environment, which sustains us and gives us the chance to be here!

For some reason it seems to me that we seem hell bent on destroying/poisoning  it against our own best interests. (Perhaps thats for another thread.)

I have no idea why certain folks feel the need to bring violence into this relationship. There are so many ways in which we can get an adrenaline rush which is what you seem to describe. Why is it necessary to involve another sentient being that was just minding it's own business and helping the eco system which we rely on to function?

As for dressing up in a Bear suit to do it. Can't you see that is utter madness? 

[Vancvillan]

2 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

I don't understand the desire to kill sentient beings.

I somewhat see how the challenge of tracking something could be exciting; chasing them in a 'hide and seek' sort of way. Especially as wild animals are creatures of which our understanding is far removed;

But very much like De Niro at the end of 'The Deer Hunter' (terrible example I know) why destroy what you've enjoyed tracking and observing? (probably terrifying it beyond belief in all honesty.)

For me the idea to destroy an animal is a sick perversion.  They can't fight back against a bullet. WooHoo big man, go human development. Love to see your brother in laws wrestle a bear or a tiger.

Tell me I'm soppy.

You're not soppy. There's a bunch of stuff to unpack here - much of which reasonable people can disagree about - but I'll tell you where I'm sitting (which is not without contradiction or cognitive dissonance). I'm definitely not trying to persuade anyone here, and I completely respect your stance.

I eat meat. I could become a vegan (and deeply considered it) but after a lot of reading, listening and thinking I came to feel that while it may be a method of harm reduction, it doesn't remove me from suffering inflicted on other sentient beings (Robert C Jones is a vegan philosopher and interesting voice on this subject). I could drone on about this (for example, the wheat crop in western Australia is responsible for the poisoning of over 1 billion mice per annum) but let's just say being vegan doesn't mean no dead animals. For some people this is the best way to reduce harm,and I both appreciate and respect that choice.

Given that I eat meat, I try to be conscious of where it comes from. The majority of my family's animal protein comes from my in-laws hobby farm where I see the cows range, graze and swim on an acreage run under principles of regenerative agriculture. No tilling of soil (which kills a lot of animals), no packing animals in - but at the end of the year they are sent to slaughter. While the animals are (by any western standard) humanely slaughtered, it is worth reading into what those standards are. Let's just say the majority might go clean, but a significant minority to not. This makes it easier for me to live with than supermarket / factory farmed meat, but I'm still not completely comfortable.

Which brings me on to wild game.  These are animals that live longer and freer than domestic livestock. If they are killed by a hunter that is a life cut short, but for wild animals there are no retirement homes. Death is almost certainly coming from either famine, disease or predation, and none of those are quick and merciful (do yourself a favour and don't learn about how wolves feed in elk and moose calves). There is no joy in the kill for many hunters - I wouldn't go as far as to call it regret, but a sorrow and a very strong connection to the tragedy of the act is a lot more common than I think many non-hunters would perceive. Most people cry on their first hunt, and many continue to have a great deal of internal conflict from then on. There is often a feeling a triumph in that they may have been tracking that animal for weeks or months (hunting in most cases is actually incredibly difficult), but I do not think that the majority of hunters have a blood lust. Obviously there are pricks in every community, but in my experience they are a small percentage.

So why use guns? It's a fair question. For literally all of the hunters I've spent time with, an ethical (quick and clean) kill is paramount. A 30 calibre bullet to the lungs of anything outside of Africa is going to cause death before the animal feels much more than the shock of being hit.

Let's go down the road of levelling the playing field some more though.

Bow hunting is popular, but compound bows (with cams to increase the energy applied to the arrow) are often used - again in the name of making a quick kill, so there a technical advantage there. Recurve bows (traditional bow - think Hunger Games) transfer much less energy to the arrow so are a much trickier tool to use consistently if the aim is a kill shot. In either case, it's fairly typical that the animal will run after being shot, so you're tracking a blood trail rather than watching an animal drop. There's a reason bows aren't used in slaughter houses, though this is still a much quicker death than wild animals typically experience.

If you really want to see a human spear, stab or wrestle a deer (ungulates being by far the most common source of big game meat) in order to kill it and then eat it, well at that point I have to say I just disagree - I think that's cruel to the animal. Bear hunting is another subject we can chat about if you want to - I leave that for now though. We do have pumas in North America (and there is limited hunting), but no tigers so I can't speak to that.

So for me confronting and bring directly involved in the tragedy of taking life to sustain life is somehow cathartic to me - I recognize that no human on earth exists without the death of other sentient beings, and this is the way that right now (and I'm open to change) brings me the most peace in terms of minimizing that suffering.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Vancvillan
Spelling

[TheAuthority]

@Vancvillan Thank you for your considered and nuanced post. It will write a reply sometime tomorrow when a) I'm less tired and b) I've drunk less winee!

[Follyfoot]

44 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

As I tried to eschew before: Humans are intelligent enough to understand animals, their place in the food chain, and ultimately their  place within the larger ecosystem - our whole environment, which sustains us and gives us the chance to be here!

For some reason it seems to me that we seem hell bent on destroying/poisoning  it against our own best interests. (Perhaps thats for another thread.)

I have no idea why certain folks feel the need to bring violence into this relationship. There are so many ways in which we can get an adrenaline rush which is what you seem to describe. Why is it necessary to involve another sentient being that was just minding it's own business and helping the eco system which we rely on to function?

As for dressing up in a Bear suit to do it. Can't you see that is utter madness? 

Probably did not explain that as best as I could. I think the guy I’m on about made what he called a bear observation suit actually to help understand the creature more with a view to saving its existence. I did not mean I want to go toe to toe with the bear but would if possible and safe like to feel its power if that makes sense And just be close to it

Edited August 29, 2020 by Follyfoot

[chrisp65]

How many bears would it take to kill a T Rex?

One, I guess. If you fired it with enough ooomph.

[A'Villan]

4 hours ago, Follyfoot said:

Probably did not explain that as best as I could. I think the guy I’m on about made what he called a bear observation suit actually to help understand the creature more with a view to saving its existence. I did not mean I want to go toe to toe with the bear but would if possible and safe like to feel its power if that makes sense And just be close to it

I watched an episode of "I Survived" or something like that, back when I watched TV every now and then, anyway, it featured a man who had been mauled to near death by a bear, this is after he had unloaded a full round of what was from memory 50 caliber bullets, and from the way he was talking, I can't remember if he specified or not, but you got the impression every one hit the bear too.

[villakram]

In somewhat more prosaic gun happenings here in the mitten - Dad shoots 2yr old daughter.

"“The father retrieved his weapon (and) fired multiple shots,” Johnson said. “Unfortunately, one of those shots did end up hitting the 2-year-old in the left arm. ... Like any father, he was looking to protect his child.”"

https://www.mlive.com/news/2020/10/michigan-girl-2-shot-by-father-during-effort-to-stop-dog-attack.html

[maqroll]

Freedom!

Quote

3 Killed, Including Gunman, in Shooting at Louisiana Gun Store

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/us/metairie-shooting-jefferson-gun-outlet.html

[sne]

*Murica!

[rjw63]

Surprised this hasn't been bumped after eight people shot to death in Atlanta. Most if them female Asian massage workers.

[maqroll]

A **** bloodbath. Heaven help us.

[KenjiOgiwara]

1 hour ago, rjw63 said:

Surprised this hasn't been bumped after eight people shot to death in Atlanta. Most if them female Asian massage workers.

Seen the hillbilly they've arrested? No wonder Trump got elected. 

[Big Salad]

I wish their was a clear cut way to end the gun violence in the USA once and for all.

Unfortunately as an American I don't see this happening anytime soon.

Americans love their guns too much and that includes those higher in government.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Big Salad

[lapal_fan]

2 hours ago, Big Salad said:

I wish their was a clear cut way to end the gun violence in the USA once and for all.

Unfortunately as an American I don't see this happening anytime soon.

Americans love their guns too much and that includes those higher in government.

Those in higher government don't love guns - they love selling them to idiots and make stacks of cash doing so. 

There are very few cases in the US where one would require a gun, but having spoken to residents in rural areas with bears etc, they own a revolver and a large calibre, single shot weapon - just in case.  I kinda get that.

Anyone in the 'burbs/urban environment owning a weapon is an idiot (imho of course). 

[villa4europe]

37 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

Those in higher government don't love guns - they love selling them to idiots and make stacks of cash doing so. 

There are very few cases in the US where one would require a gun, but having spoken to residents in rural areas with bears etc, they own a revolver and a large calibre, single shot weapon - just in case.  I kinda get that.

Anyone in the 'burbs/urban environment owning a weapon is an idiot (imho of course). 

been talked about before no doubt

it would require a complete cultural shift in the country, Americans love guns and Americans feel the need for them, they feel the need for them because they need protection america's enemies and from themselves, how will you protect your family if someone breaks in to your house tonight?

forget the guns for a minute and focus on the madness of living your life with the thought that you're not safe, that someone is coming to get you, that something could happen to your family while you all sleep...does anyone else in the civilised world live like that?! born in England and now live in Germany i dont fear for my safety pretty much ever, listening to Americans justify the need for guns for safety purposes makes them sound like they live in Syria "i need a gun because this could happen" 

Americans dont realise between Jesus and their enemies just how un-free they are, they are controlled and seemingly the outcome is guns, violence and intolerance 

 

[bickster]

1 hour ago, lapal_fan said:

Those in higher government don't love guns - they love selling them to idiots and make stacks of cash doing so. 

No that isn't it, it's that they get donated shit tons of money by the NRA not that they actually sell the guns themselves (or most of them anyway)

[lapal_fan]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

No that isn't it, it's that they get donated shit tons of money by the NRA not that they actually sell the guns themselves (or most of them anyway)

Yea I get that, my analogy was more obvious.

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

Yea I get that, my analogy was more obvious.

Is that a new euphemism for wrong?

PS It wasn't an analogy 

 

[lapal_fan]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

Is that a new euphemism for wrong?

PS It wasn't an analogy 

 

Well whatever is it..

If you think I honestly think higher up government officials actually sell guns to people then I dunno dude..

Move on.