NurembergVillan Posted February 9, 2018 Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2018 19 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: In fairness wasn't it in the Tory manifesto in 2015 so he pretty much had to go through with it. The vote should never have gone the way it did and it wouldn't have done had the remain campaign not been based on fear but on shouting out the positives of remaining in the EU. Leave in fairness played a blinder as they promoted positives. They may have been based on total bullshit but they were positives non the less and for many people whose research doesn't go much beyond reading the headline in the sun or daily mail it was enough. That was the whole point though wasn't it? Farage and his ilk were stealing a little bit of the limelight and some of the right wing voters were flashing "come and get me" glances in that direction. Cameron put it into the manifesto to ensure he kept hold of those voters, and attracted a few others who didn't like the forrins. He never expected to lose, so it was a logical step for him. Then BJ The Clown rocks up and fancies his chances of getting one over on his old school rival. The rest, as they say, is misery. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 @NurembergVillan I get everything you are saying and it is spot on that it was in the Tory manifesto to snatch a few UKippers but I can't say I really hold that against Cameron as it is the kind of thing parties/leaders have done through out time. The failing wasn't in promising a referendum to hold off UKIP the failing was in not having a positive remain campaign to defeat them and other leavers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted February 9, 2018 Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2018 23 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: The failing wasn't in promising a referendum to hold off UKIP the failing was in not having a positive remain campaign to defeat them and other leavers. I half agree. I think both parts of this are failings. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Don’t forget even Labour were getting nervous, promosing a referendum in the event of a big change in EU laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Risso said: Don’t forget even Labour were getting nervous, promosing a referendum in the event of a big change in EU laws. Isn't that a bit like someone saying "you can't blame Tony Blair for the Iraq war, the Tories would have done it as well..." ? Which I'm guessing you would give the short-shrift that it would deserve. Edited February 9, 2018 by ml1dch 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 4 hours ago, Chindie said: Anyway, Tories... More bashing. It's what they're there for. I mentioned it the other day but, as much as May is dreadful, the rest the party is as bad or worse. There isn't a sensible candidate in there and with Brexit being so bitter inside the party, nobody stands out as having the support of the party. May only managed it by walking through the rain drops. Now? **** me, the names are all atrocious. She'll stay in the job partly because nobody else will unite support currently, and mostly because no one is fool enough to let the all the shit spatter them in the current horror show. Nonsense, Rees-Mogg is a thoroughly likable sort of oddball who harkens back to ye olde tyme. The Gruan said so in a bizarre puff piece today, therefore it is so. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/09/after-decades-in-the-making-jacob-rees-mogg-time-may-be-coming "Watching Rees-Mogg around parliament shows he is a man of a remarkable calm certainty; if his face flushes slightly under pressure, his steady voice never changes pitch. Political colleagues and opponents say they have never seen him lose his temper; when asked what he is like in private, everybody starts by emphasising his courtesy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 36 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Isn't that a bit like someone saying "you can't blame Tony Blair for the Iraq war, the Tories would have done it as well..." ? Which I'm guessing you would give the short-shrift that it would deserve. No, not an attempt at apportioning blame which starts and ends with the Conservatives. More an attempt at explaining why it was likely that a referendum might have been likely at some point whoever was in power. There was a mood in the country that wasn’t going away. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post markavfc40 Posted February 9, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted February 9, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Risso said: There was a mood in the country that wasn’t going away. The Government of the day ultimately set the mood music though don't they. The main issue people seem to have for wanting out of the EU is immigration. That Johnny Foreigner is coming over here and either living a lavish life style on benefits at our expense or working for peanuts for unscrupulous employers and driving down wages. The answer to all that was to stop employers taking advantage. The government chose not to though. The government could have screamed from the root tops that immigration was a 4 billion pound a year net benefit to the country and that immigration was propping up our public services instead they remained meek as it was a great distraction for the public to blame Johnny Foreigner for their woes rather than point the finger where it should go - at them. The Tories used a similar tactic by allowing benefit claimants to have the finger pointed in their direction. In fact they actively encouraged it. This whole shit storm is of the Tories own making. They could have taken on UKIP, and the anti Europe brigade in their own party, head on and by good reasoning won the argument. They didn't. They gave in and gave them a referendum. That still offered a great opportunity to win the argument but by running a negative campaign based on fear they, and in fairness those from other parties, failed. Edited February 9, 2018 by markavfc40 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted February 9, 2018 Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2018 23 minutes ago, Risso said: No, not an attempt at apportioning blame which starts and ends with the Conservatives. More an attempt at explaining why it was likely that a referendum might have been likely at some point whoever was in power. There was a mood in the country that wasn’t going away. You're not wrong. Farage and his cohort in the right wing media had stirred the pot successfully enough to ensure something had to happen. They'd also laid the groundwork to play on a lot of people's unfounded fears and win the bloody thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 it was a heady mix of fear of the muslim immigrants massing in Calais and Rotherham, funny pasty waving clown politicians, and fixing the NHS vs the grey people that were promising more of the same shit that had landed you with your current bank balance Once Cameron let that battle happen on those terms, his pleasant amateur toff politician persona was simply not up to the task he'd set himself. To date, he's getting off very very lightly. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Of course don't forget that Cameron was also under pressure from lib Dems to have a referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post StefanAVFC Posted February 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted February 10, 2018 12 hours ago, markavfc40 said: That Johnny Foreigner is coming over here and either living a lavish life style on benefits at our expense or working for peanuts for unscrupulous employers and driving down wages. Ah yes, the classic Schrodinger's immigrant paradox. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 10, 2018 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2018 6 hours ago, darrenm said: Of course don't forget that Cameron was also under pressure from lib Dems to have a referendum. Ah yes, the We'll Say Anything for Votes Party. Nothings changed with them really since I started following politics in the late 70's. The seriously will say anything they think makes them look good. Take the classic Focus Newsletter where they advertise to everyone in the borough which fences are in disrepair (around a school playing field for example) and they are putting pressure to bear on the relevant department to fix this issue. Sounds great, unless you live on the other side of the fence and the Knobhead Party just advertised.... Burgle Here to every house in the area. Looks good though until you get hit by a Liberal Turdbomb 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 9 hours ago, darrenm said: Of course don't forget that Cameron was also under pressure from lib Dems to have a referendum. And now they want another one. Do they just permanantly want an EU Referendum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Wainy316 said: And now they want another one. Do they just permanantly want an EU Referendum? A continual referendum might be a good thing actually. Have a live score from smartphones of in or out and our tarriffs can applied in real time. ©Darrenm 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 11, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted February 11, 2018 19 hours ago, bickster said: ....the We'll Say Anything for Votes Party.... A “we'll Say Anything for Votes Party” - There’s more than one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 There's even a couple of 'say nothing' parties at the moment. We want a deal that's good, and I've been very clear on that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 11, 2018 Moderator Share Posted February 11, 2018 4 hours ago, blandy said: A “we'll Say Anything for Votes Party” - There’s more than one. True Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted February 14, 2018 Moderator Share Posted February 14, 2018 #toriesontwitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 'Orwellian' is over-used as an adjective, but seems pretty appropriate here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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